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> That's not the problem with Firefox OS. The problem was installing it on regular phones, and the subsequent lack of apps. You're right, I misinterpreted your

by maheart 10y ago

> That's not the problem with Firefox OS. The problem was installing it on regular phones, and the subsequent lack of apps. You're right, I misinterpreted your question. I cannot see how Jolla can overcome the difficulty of getting SailfishOS onto regular phones. I personally don't think SailfishOS needs 10% market share. It needs 1% market share, with a dedicated following. Similar to how Linux is on the desktop. I'm hopeful that SailfishOS becomes mature enough that you can install it onto existing phones relatively easily; similar to how people tried Linux on their desktop PCs in the 2000s.

forgotpwtomain 10y ago
Linux is pretty awful on desktop. I only put up with it because it's worth putting hours for a tool I use 50+ hours a week. There is no way to justify that kind of timesink for a mobile device.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  awful for what?
  - forgotpwtomain 10y ago
    > awful for what? Seriously? Everything you do outside the terminal? Maybe stuff that just works on Windows/Mac OSX? Like connecting peripherals, printers, Android phones? Dual video card support? Kernel support for new Intel CPU's? Support for HD monitors / screens? There is a reason Linux isn't gaining any market-share on desktop..
    - hubert123 10y ago
      yep, people are afraid to call Linux out on its problems because it's open source and free and it makes a lot of people money and we should just be glad to have an alternative at all.. but there are many serious problems with it, it's easy to forget this if you don't have the courage to keep saying it despite the things I mentioned. 1. linux portability. yes, most likely you cant just write one app and it works on 'linux'. without additional work it will only work on your specific distro. Probably even just your specific distro with a specific version number. 2. linux installers in general. i get it, we all like just typing in a quick command and installing a whole suite of programs. thats nice. but for general installations, in 99% of the cases it would be helpful to offer some easy gui click-through installer just like we get on windows. 3. easy to break it: no, i dont see it as my personal user error if i install some random nvidia driver from some random ppa and it breaks my boot desktop and i only get a black screen. i dont care how i broke it, that simply should not be possible ever.
      - dispose13432 10y ago
        >1. linux portability. yes, most likely you cant just write one app and it works on 'linux'. without additional work it will only work on your specific distro. Probably even just your specific distro with a specific version number. 2. linux installers in general. i get it, we all like just typing in a quick command and installing a whole suite of programs. thats nice. but for general installations, in 99% of the cases it would be helpful to offer some easy gui click-through installer just like we get on windows. 3. easy to break it: no, i dont see it as my personal user error if i install some random nvidia driver from some random ppa and it breaks my boot desktop and i only get a black screen. i dont care how i broke it, that simply should not be possible ever. 1. & 2. We're not in the 90s. Nowadays, I go to chrome or JetBrains and download one of _four_ files: a 32bit deb, a 32bin rpm, a 64bit deb, and a 64 bit rpm, and use a graphics installer. 3. You download an EXE and it breaks your computer? Naah, can't happen on Windows /s . I think people should be reminded that downloading things from some PPA is _exactly_ like downloading random_cat_video.exe
        pdimitar 10y ago
        Since when does "Linux is no worse than Windows with the random_cat_video.exe problem" count as a valid argument? Linux is constantly touted as superior to Windows and macOS. So it should do better. Either that, or it should stop being advertised as better. Pick one.
    - ekianjo 10y ago
      I'm always amazed by the misconceptions out there about the Linux desktop, Maybe the last time you used it was like 3 years ago ? > Like connecting peripherals, printers SANE for printers and scanners support hundreds of peripherals out of the box. No specific driver installation required. Most USB devices are recognized and supported in the kernel. > Dual video card support That I can agree with you, but it's not related to the "desktop" per se, it's for a tiny amount of people who have this kind of configuration that it's an issue. There are workarounds like Bumblebee, and with Wayland the situation is supposed to improve. > Kernel support for new Intel CPU's Intel is releasing patches all the time. That's not the Linux's project fault if Intel is not working at the same pace on all platforms. > Support for HD monitors / screens The situation has vastly improved with GNOME, Mate, Cinnamon and KDE for HDPI support. The issue remaining are mostly applications that have not been rewritten to take advantage of modern GUI frameworks yet. Note that on Windows the situation is far from perfect either. > There is a reason Linux isn't gaining any market-share on desktop.. It has actually beeing gaining steadily about 0.5% market share in the past 6 months according to different metrics of net usage. And it's gaining that kind of share DESPITE having no company doing marketing for it, and very few hardware sold with Linux in the first place (99.9% PCs come with Windows by default). When you are not in a situation where the choice is left to the user, OF COURSE you will get this kind of share.
      - dispose13432 10y ago
        I don't get the anger against Linux on the desktop. It may work, it may not. Let's even say that Linux works on the level it did in the 90s (when compiling your own kernel was a regular thing). It's not Linux's fault it has terrible driver support. In reality, the same issues back then cause the same issues now. Lack of standards plus NDAs mean that sometimes Linus just can't figure out how your screen works. It's like screaming that CM doesn't support Samsung S6. It's Samsung you should be angry at, not CM.
        wolfgke 10y ago
        It surely does not help that whether something works or not depends on the distribution.
    - walrus01 10y ago
      Linux on the desktop, coming really soon now since 2000.
      - pdimitar 10y ago
        And it's always the "evil OEMs" and "the stupid users" fault that its desktop adoption is still not there. I know there are a lot of closed hardware components and you can't do much most of the time. I get that and that's a fair counter-argument. That however means the fan community should stop pretending Linux is superior on the desktop and that it "just hasn't been discovered yet". This is simply not true.
dispose13432 10y ago
>I'm hopeful that SailfishOS becomes mature enough that you can install it onto existing phones relatively easily; similar to how people tried Linux on their desktop PCs in the 2000s. Linux was able to use existing Unix code, and now has a large server following. How much time would you spend on programming for Android Cupcake (which probably has more users than Jolla)?
dispose13432 10y ago
>I'm hopeful that SailfishOS becomes mature enough that you can install it onto existing phones relatively easily; similar to how people tried Linux on their desktop PCs in the 2000s. It's not about maturity. It's about the lack of ARM standardization, which cellphones are notorious for.

by maheart 10y ago

forgotpwtomain 10y ago

Linux is pretty awful on desktop. I only put up with it because it's worth putting hours for a tool I use 50+ hours a week. There is no way to justify that kind of timesink for a mobile device.

ekianjo 10y ago
awful for what?
- forgotpwtomain 10y ago
  > awful for what? Seriously? Everything you do outside the terminal? Maybe stuff that just works on Windows/Mac OSX? Like connecting peripherals, printers, Android phones? Dual video card support? Kernel support for new Intel CPU's? Support for HD monitors / screens? There is a reason Linux isn't gaining any market-share on desktop..
  - hubert123 10y ago
    yep, people are afraid to call Linux out on its problems because it's open source and free and it makes a lot of people money and we should just be glad to have an alternative at all.. but there are many serious problems with it, it's easy to forget this if you don't have the courage to keep saying it despite the things I mentioned. 1. linux portability. yes, most likely you cant just write one app and it works on 'linux'. without additional work it will only work on your specific distro. Probably even just your specific distro with a specific version number. 2. linux installers in general. i get it, we all like just typing in a quick command and installing a whole suite of programs. thats nice. but for general installations, in 99% of the cases it would be helpful to offer some easy gui click-through installer just like we get on windows. 3. easy to break it: no, i dont see it as my personal user error if i install some random nvidia driver from some random ppa and it breaks my boot desktop and i only get a black screen. i dont care how i broke it, that simply should not be possible ever.
    - dispose13432 10y ago
      >1. linux portability. yes, most likely you cant just write one app and it works on 'linux'. without additional work it will only work on your specific distro. Probably even just your specific distro with a specific version number. 2. linux installers in general. i get it, we all like just typing in a quick command and installing a whole suite of programs. thats nice. but for general installations, in 99% of the cases it would be helpful to offer some easy gui click-through installer just like we get on windows. 3. easy to break it: no, i dont see it as my personal user error if i install some random nvidia driver from some random ppa and it breaks my boot desktop and i only get a black screen. i dont care how i broke it, that simply should not be possible ever. 1. & 2. We're not in the 90s. Nowadays, I go to chrome or JetBrains and download one of _four_ files: a 32bit deb, a 32bin rpm, a 64bit deb, and a 64 bit rpm, and use a graphics installer. 3. You download an EXE and it breaks your computer? Naah, can't happen on Windows /s . I think people should be reminded that downloading things from some PPA is _exactly_ like downloading random_cat_video.exe
      - pdimitar 10y ago
        Since when does "Linux is no worse than Windows with the random_cat_video.exe problem" count as a valid argument? Linux is constantly touted as superior to Windows and macOS. So it should do better. Either that, or it should stop being advertised as better. Pick one.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    I'm always amazed by the misconceptions out there about the Linux desktop, Maybe the last time you used it was like 3 years ago ? > Like connecting peripherals, printers SANE for printers and scanners support hundreds of peripherals out of the box. No specific driver installation required. Most USB devices are recognized and supported in the kernel. > Dual video card support That I can agree with you, but it's not related to the "desktop" per se, it's for a tiny amount of people who have this kind of configuration that it's an issue. There are workarounds like Bumblebee, and with Wayland the situation is supposed to improve. > Kernel support for new Intel CPU's Intel is releasing patches all the time. That's not the Linux's project fault if Intel is not working at the same pace on all platforms. > Support for HD monitors / screens The situation has vastly improved with GNOME, Mate, Cinnamon and KDE for HDPI support. The issue remaining are mostly applications that have not been rewritten to take advantage of modern GUI frameworks yet. Note that on Windows the situation is far from perfect either. > There is a reason Linux isn't gaining any market-share on desktop.. It has actually beeing gaining steadily about 0.5% market share in the past 6 months according to different metrics of net usage. And it's gaining that kind of share DESPITE having no company doing marketing for it, and very few hardware sold with Linux in the first place (99.9% PCs come with Windows by default). When you are not in a situation where the choice is left to the user, OF COURSE you will get this kind of share.
    - dispose13432 10y ago
      I don't get the anger against Linux on the desktop. It may work, it may not. Let's even say that Linux works on the level it did in the 90s (when compiling your own kernel was a regular thing). It's not Linux's fault it has terrible driver support. In reality, the same issues back then cause the same issues now. Lack of standards plus NDAs mean that sometimes Linus just can't figure out how your screen works. It's like screaming that CM doesn't support Samsung S6. It's Samsung you should be angry at, not CM.
      - wolfgke 10y ago
        It surely does not help that whether something works or not depends on the distribution.
  - walrus01 10y ago
    Linux on the desktop, coming really soon now since 2000.
    - pdimitar 10y ago
      And it's always the "evil OEMs" and "the stupid users" fault that its desktop adoption is still not there. I know there are a lot of closed hardware components and you can't do much most of the time. I get that and that's a fair counter-argument. That however means the fan community should stop pretending Linux is superior on the desktop and that it "just hasn't been discovered yet". This is simply not true.

dispose13432 10y ago

>I'm hopeful that SailfishOS becomes mature enough that you can install it onto existing phones relatively easily; similar to how people tried Linux on their desktop PCs in the 2000s. Linux was able to use existing Unix code, and now has a large server following. How much time would you spend on programming for Android Cupcake (which probably has more users than Jolla)?

dispose13432 10y ago

>I'm hopeful that SailfishOS becomes mature enough that you can install it onto existing phones relatively easily; similar to how people tried Linux on their desktop PCs in the 2000s. It's not about maturity. It's about the lack of ARM standardization, which cellphones are notorious for.