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Probably not a popular opinion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself. In a co

Probably not a popular opinion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself. In a company as large as amazon you are going to have the full gamut of the human spectrum working for you. It IS possible that person who is a bad employee, and person who would commit suicide at work can occupy the same body. Franky, this linked letter shares a lot of that same bizarreness. He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave and said he wish he had the courage to do that. If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job? If you are a good employee then getting another job shouldn't be that difficult. If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault. I'm not saying that amazon is not potentially a shitty place to work at. But this whole employee attempts to commit suicide, that'll show em attitude is just plain wrong headed.

treehau5 10y ago
Your expectations are correct. This is just a horribly, inhumane comment on every level. It's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!"
- mikestew 10y ago
  It's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!" What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible?
  - devy 10y ago
    > What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible? It's VERY WRONG to attempt to end one's life in order to exit the toxic work/relationship/marriage, like the unnamed Amazon employee did.
    - jaredsohn 10y ago
      Exiting the current situation would mean separation/divorce, not ending one's life.
      - devy 10y ago
        My comment was regarding to the ununamed male employee who attempted suicide.
        mikestew 10y ago
        Then you probably replied to the wrong comment, as my question had nothing to do with what you're on about.
        devy 10y ago
        I probably did and getting massively down voted as a result. But I can't delete it either once someone commented on it.
  - mattdeboard 10y ago
    It's not the "get a new spouse" part. It's the "Just" part. Let's assume you're a programmer. Ever get annoyed when someone comes along while you're dealing with a problem and goes, "Why don't you just..." without any acknowledgement of the many complexities? And that if you could "just" do this or that, you fucking would have already? Yeah, it's like that.
    - eanzenberg 10y ago
      That would never annoy me, in fact I supremely enjoy conversing solutions about hard problems where multiple solutions may exist.
    - mikestew 10y ago
      It's the "Just" part. Ah, "it's not always that simple". Fair enough, thanks. (And two down votes already for asking an honest question? Stay classy, HN.)
    - khnd 10y ago
      oh wow +1 for dev whispering skills
  - ProAm 10y ago
    Because problems/issues of this scale are not fixed with band-aid type solutions, regardless of who is more at fault.
    - loco5niner 10y ago
      Except, in some situations, one party holds 100% of the blame.
      - ProAm 10y ago
        Doesn't mean its easily fixed.
  - norea-armozel 10y ago
    I can tell you two reasons why it's not always the best choice. 1. They're not currently employed which means they would enter into poverty with no exit strategy for that. 2. They have children which means without relatives on both sides of the relationship willing to help with the transition to separation (and possibly divorce if they're married) it's going to be hard to do this. It also means going into poverty in some cases whether or not the person has a job since caring for the material needs of children is an added burden. And if the spouse was also abusing them that means leaving them in their care isn't an option either. Simply put, it's not easy when it comes to leaving one bad situation. Whether it's an abusive employer or an abusive spouse.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  No, it's not. You need to have an internal locus of control, or life is just not going to treat you well in any aspect. If you don't truly believe that you can affect your external circumstances by changing your actions, you'll be constantly wondering why crappy things happen to you and looking for external saviours. If you do believe you can change your life, you'll start doing it, and your life is more likely to get better.
  - treehau5 10y ago
    Some people chose to live their life more humbly, accepting the cup that was given to them, rather than constantly chase this constant state of utopia, and indeed I can empathize with that. I have heard the stories of many women (unfortunately not so many men, but I am sure they are out there), my mom being one of them, who stay in undesirable circumstances because they pity the other person, and they think that showing them grace and love will help them. They feel if they leave, the selfish act is now on them for leaving them out to dry, because who else is going to love them? Sometimes this is the case and things turn out better, but sometimes it isn't, and the hard part is convincing that other person that they are being taken advantage of, this humbleness and gentleness is being taken advantage of. Sometimes people take the same approach to their jobs, their managers, all other relationships. If they leave, who else will do this job? Then the manager will lose his job, whatever else runs through their minds. Life is never binary.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      > Some people chose to live their life more humbly Then let them. Don't let them complain about what they're going through incessantly. Sure, everybody complains about their job/relationships once in a while, but when that's all you talk/complain about and you get a martyr complex (I have to do this because nobody else will) that's when you remind them that this too is a choice they made.
      - treehau5 10y ago
        Tell someone to "just make a choice" when they work paycheck to paycheck. Tell someone to "just make a choice" when if they leave their abusive relationship, their children will be devistated and they will lose their health insurance. What will you tell them? "Just go get a job with health insurance!"? I hope not. Tell someone "just make a choice" when they have convinced themselves that leaving would be quitting, and it would go against their very fabric of who they self-identify with to do so. So easy to make choices like you describe in hindsight, and when you have ample fallback options. But when you don't it requires great courage and an amazing support system, as well as emotional stability. Most people sadly don't have that, and to sit here and say "well it's a choice you made!" is beyond heartless. If you see someone suffering in a scenario where to you it may seem like "Well stupid! Just make a chose to leave" that is a good sign that you are probably wrong, and don't understand the situation at all. We are human beings, not emotionless robots. Our brains don't go (if desireableSituation !== 1) { leave() } I hope you never have to be in these shoes.
jackmodern 10y ago
she said she quit in the 4th paragraph I think, although when I read the first paragraph this was at least partially my initial thought. at top tech companies people get their ego's and self worth overly intertwined with their job and career progression because people around them are so impressed with the companies they work for, so I see where she is coming from. I had this same experience at Facebook, and I feel for her, but when a manager wants you to quit (as her manager clearly did) take a hint or be prepared to get needled by the boss every time they see you.
- qween90 10y ago
  If the manager wants a person to quit, why don't they just put the person on Performance Improvement Plan or something equivalent? Instead going through the effort of needling someone every time?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - trav4225 10y ago
    Is "firing" not a thing anymore?
    - jackmodern 10y ago
      if the reason they want you to leave is relationship based (i.e. people don't like you, but you still do your job effectively) then firing isn't really an option due to legal ramifications, PIPs can be though, but not always.
  - jackmodern 10y ago
    said this below as well, but relationship issues aren't always PIP worthy if the person does their job well enough outside of being unlikeable.
- hinkley 10y ago
  at top tech companies people get their ego's and self worth overly intertwined with their job and career progression That is exactly what a pressure cooker is. Your management chain is constantly encouraging you to equate your work quality/quantity with your worth as a human being. You want to be a good person, right? Well Jeff over there is a good person, and he worked longer than you. He also doesn't complain as much as you. Sure, you're complaining about all of Jeff's production bugs that you have to fix, but that's beside the point.
bovermyer 10y ago
You're victim blaming. That makes you wrong-headed and I hope to God I never have the ill fortune to interact with you beyond this forum.
- notyourwork 10y ago
  > You're victim blaming. This premise assumes the person who attempted suicide was a victim. Perhaps he/she was not mentally fit to work in a high pressure and stressful environment? Pushing code to Amazon.com is a lot different from pushing code to some <insert dinky non-brand name company>. Not everyone is capable of handling the pressure. I don't know one way or the other but you are as easy to dismiss his side of the argument by assuming the person who jumped is the victim. Sorry but you and I and the internet don't know the situation well enough to conclude either direction.
  - GotURsolution3 10y ago
    You can generalize it all you want, but you're not looking at the specific case. Perhaps this, perhaps that. The truth of the victim's situation will not be known now. All we can do is point at Amazon or society. But here we are with specific facts. The person was either mentally unfit and our society failed to catch this and help, and forced them to take whatever jobs were available for someone with that skill-level (oh man an Amazon job! They aren't going anywhere anytime soon!). Or Amazon is a shitty place for low-skilled workers. Amazon can be just as culpable for being a known shit-hole. People can be sane and go in and come out nutters at companies, doesn't just happen to programmers. Burnout and occupational stress are real. By saying maybe this person was just nuts, sweeps alternatives under the rug. And whether they were or not isn't relevant now. Amazon or society will still peddle the mantra of "get a job!" and push people that maybe shouldn't have certain roles into them by default.
  - trentmb 10y ago
    > Perhaps he/she was not mentally fit to work in a high pressure and stressful environment? Further evidence the hiring process is broken I suppose.
  - 10y ago
mikestew 10y ago
I expect to get downvote blasted into oblivion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself. Down voting your comment would disappoint me very much (and as of this writing, it's the top comment). IMO, at worst Amazon is part of a much larger picture. And as you imply, out of X number of people, Y will hurl themselves off a building. Remember the FoxConn hoo-ha a few years back? Yeah, I sat down and compared the reported suicide rates of 400K FoxConn employees versus China in general (I wasn't the only one, as I recall). Turns out, FoxConn folk must be pretty damned happy, actually, as their suicide rate was lower than the general population of China. No, to place blame on Amazon is to ignore the problem. I've worked at far shittier places than Amazon is reported to be, and I didn't take my own life. More was at play than just where this person worked. If we need do anything, we need identify that "more" and fix that.
- notyourwork 10y ago
  > at worst Amazon is part of a much larger picture. I think this is the crux of the issue with our industry. It is not unique to Amazon, it just so happens they have had a few vocal employees.
  - rfrank 10y ago
    Lower level employees at companies like this tend to get deridden for speaking about their situation and told to "just get a new job / move to a new city". This thread, that Yelp girl, and so on. Disapproval of your circumstances or employment situation have to be expressed in just the right tone and wording to be considered valid by some.
- mistermann 10y ago
  You think this person would have committed suicide wherever they worked, and their experience at Amazon was in no way different than it would have been at any other company? Do you think Amazon is no different than other companies? Is it possible for companies to have different cultures?
  - 10y ago
cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
I'll probably get downvoted as well for agreeing with you, but I agree. Committing suicide is not the answer when you have a very clear alternative: Leave and get another job. It is NEVER "courageous" to commit a suicide. I understand why some people do it, but that still doesn't make it "courageous". Committing suicide is running away from reality. Period.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sharkweek 10y ago
  This is grossly oversimplifying suicide... For your consideration: “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” -David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest
  - mos_basik 10y ago
    As I read your comment, I thought, "Wow, this HN user has an amazing command of their words and a disturbingly clear understanding of suicidal ideation." And then it turned out to be a DFW quote. God, he was a compelling writer - and I've only read The Pale King and various essays.
bambax 10y ago
I kind of was with you until If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault. The company's responsibility is not to push "bad" employees to commit suicide; it's to help them improve, or, if that's too difficult or there simply isn't a good fit, to part with them in the best of terms. The question here isn't about the performance of Amazon's employees; it's whether bullying is regarded as an acceptable managing practice.
- PascLeRasc 10y ago
  Yeah, if a company is going to use the "we're a family" line to make employees spend extra time, then the least they could do is look out for their employee's mental and emotional health.
- krisroadruck 10y ago
  bit of clarification, I was attempting to say its not the companies fault if you are not a good employee and thus have trouble securing new employment. I was not saying that the company should use the fact that you are a bad employee to push you towards suicide or whatever. I'm not entirely sure how it came off that way.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    But pushing this person to suicide is actually what they did! My suspicion is that the reason they didn't notice a mental stability problem is because they probably have hundreds of people going through this at any one time. So, change your management style, or face the wrath of (at least some of) society when they read about this stuff. As a customer I love Amazon, but the more I read about them I would gladly take a hit in the convenience department to take them down several pegs and teach them and Mr. Bezos a lesson.
gdulli 10y ago
No one anecdote, positive or negative, tells us anything definitive. With Amazon there's been a cacophony of consistent negative feedback that by far outweighs what we hear about other large tech companies. Amazon has lost the benefit of the doubt.
sillysaurus3 10y ago
I expect to get downvote blasted into oblivion From the site guidelines: Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- krisroadruck 10y ago
  Sorry about that, edited to comply with the rules.
munificent 10y ago
> He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave and said he wish he had the courage to do that. I believe the author is a she.
eanzenberg 10y ago
I agree with you and I'm afraid that current education doesn't give young people the tools to deal with adversity, challenges and failure. They've substituted self-reliance and responsibility with a focus on blaming. I've met a lot of young professionals who have a hard time standing up for themselves because the perceived risk. They are afraid of losing their jobs if they did. Unfortunately they don't realize that company isn't worth their time given the stress. Certain cultures also teach total obedience to your superiors, and this is toxic as well. I think it's unfair to single Amazon out because they aren't unique in this. I've seen it at other large co's and in academia as well. There's abundance of company politics, toxicity, emotions and sludge around and to keep sane, healthy, relatively stress-free requires a toolkit of abilities to help navigate.
stanfordkid 10y ago
People feel incredibly isolated to do things like this. It is a david goliath solution -- so people should become goliaths. Band together, form unions and revolt. Utilize the press and the media, spread hyperbole and make the employer look like shit, make a class action lawsuit. Don't jump off buildings... This is more emblematic of an achievement oriented culture and a nation that judges itself by money than the fault of "Amazon" IMO. No one forces anyone to work there and anyone could probably get a job as a freelance coder or burger flipper. not worth building your identity around.
ethbro 10y ago
> maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem I've perhaps read too much dark science fiction, but I am certain I could construct a functional job environment that would cause anyone to attempt suicide, especially given years. Are there people who have mental health problems? Absolutely. Does wanting to commit suicide because your job is a mentally caustic environment mean you had pre-existing mental health problems? Absolutely not. PS: If you're in that situation, please leave your job. If your company won't transfer you to a new role, find a new company.
AcerbicZero 10y ago
It takes a very special kind of snowflake to take another's suicide and use it as a springboard for their own story about how bad their manager was. Very bizarre indeed.
- SpaceManiac 10y ago
  It is, at least, honest: "here is someone who did what I was too cowardly to do".
devy 10y ago
Being an outsider like many readers out there, nobody knows what REALLY goes on there inside Amazon. There are stories portraying from both sides. So yeah, I believe what you suggest is possible. However, what I do believe one should not take the job too seriously (if you consider it's such a shitty place to work for.) Your life is too short to be wasted working at some place you feel miserable and your life is too precious to be ended for the sole reason to call out the miserable working condition at any given place.
- paublyrne 10y ago
  Agreed that you shouldn't take your job so seriously. I think when you're in the eye of the storm of depression, it's not easy to think straight and make decisions that objectively seem logical, like just getting out.
GotURsolution3 10y ago
You're trying to assign logic to a situation where there isn't any. The person was pre-disposed to jumping, you say. Why would they think it's reasonable to consider alternatives? People can be very single-minded. For low-skill workers, a job with shit pay can be all they have. It's quite common to think "I must do well here cause I can't get another job. I'm not $random_bs_reason_they_cant_see_through." Add on the stress of an environment like Amazon, which is pushing people for no reason other than generating money (the faster Amazon is the more people think Amazon is magical, the more they spend at Amazon). The implosion of our system will be due to this ridiculous fetish with fiscal success. It's become the only marker that matters. We care so little for each other, thinking someone else is taking care of people with mental illness, not realizing the system that does that is often too expensive or too broke to do anything. BUT HEY THE STOCK IS UP AND 20 COMPANIES WERE DECLARED UNICORNS! We're reaching the point where it's things like this that will begin to crack that facade. This is an important opening for useful conversation. But we'll probably just debate JS frameworks, instead of the reality that our social safety is a complete joke. Objectivism or gtfo! Upvote/downvote. Doesn't matter. This is a throwaway. I don't have any need for imaginary internet points.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  >Upvote/downvote. Doesn't matter. This is a throwaway. I don't have any need for imaginary internet points. Yet it mattered enough for you to write the last line.
  - GotURsolution3 10y ago
    What mattered was letting people know their efforts will be in vain. I'm a believer in emotionally honest communication. That's what mattered by writing it. That's different than looking for upvotes/downvotes. But sure, the first answer you landed on was probably right. Cause you're smart.
- phailhaus 10y ago
  > I don't have any need for imaginary internet points. Haha, this is so rich, because you seem to care enough to make a throwaway and not link it to your real account.
gist 10y ago
What's interesting about this is we have no data on the number of people working for large companies who commits suicide not on company premises. Ditto for anyone taking their life not working for a company that isn't vilified like Amazon or well known. What if this person had worked at a beloved company would we then be more likely to think it was the person and not the company? Obviously people en mass are not taking their own life working for Amazon. Or any other company that I know of. > He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave I never got how people are called 'brave' in this situation or even if they jump onto train tracks to save the life of a stranger.
droopybuns 10y ago
Everyone I've known at Amazon seems aware of the problems in the environment. Amazon is a high pressure, high growth company. I don't believe that people are missing a sense of compassion for folks who are not compatible with the working situation. I agree with you on the idea that contemplating suicide is problematic- but to say there is a single problem is a gross oversimplification. I don't like this blogpost either- but the problem isn't just a suicidal employee. Managers have an obligation to both the company and their staff to help employees navigate these situations as best as possible. In the case of this jumper, someone might have dropped the ball. It's also just as possible that there was no ball dropped. The CDC says ~42k Americans commit suicide every year. Suicides aren't just about one thing usually. What are the circumstances in the life of the person who jumped that warrant this peevish posting? I don't see anything here other than an opportunistic post by someone emotional. They clearly have been asking for help and continue to suffer on some level. It's exploitative to use someone else's suicide attempt to draw attention to your own employment problems. Whether or not it's their employer that is the true source of the problem is unknowable. This is the Internet! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Twirrim 10y ago
> If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job? That makes an assumption that it's even an option. It's not always so, and not because of competency reasons. 1) Some visas are often tied to specific jobs. You could be putting your continued residency in the country at risk by leaving. 2) Amazon forks out a bunch of money by way of signing bonuses and relocation money etc. etc, which typically tie you to the company for 2 years (it's a reasonable policy, the expense is far from trivial and they need to recoup at least that much in value from your employment). If you don't stay for the 2 years, then you become liable for the entire amount (maybe pro-rated would be better/fairer). It's quite possible that individuals find themselves in a position where they literally can not afford to quit Amazon, unless they can find another employer willing to cover that money.
flukus 10y ago
> If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job? The word courageous is the real casualty here.
wallace_f 10y ago
>If you are a good employee then getting another job shouldn't be that difficult. Is this always true? I've seen horrible employees get spectacular references for their next job. I've seen incredible employees get snubbed on the way out due to political reasons or personal differences. I've also seen great employees try to leave and the company turn against them. I've also seen employees hired that had spectacular references that turned out to be awful and needed to be terminated.
kafkaesq 10y ago
If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault. Everything wrong with America's workaholic white collar ethos, in one soundbite.

treehau5 10y ago

Your expectations are correct. This is just a horribly, inhumane comment on every level. It's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!"

mikestew 10y ago
It's the equivalent to telling someone suffering from relationship abuse "Just get a new spouse!" What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible?
- devy 10y ago
  > What's wrong with telling the abused to exit their current situation as quickly as possible? It's VERY WRONG to attempt to end one's life in order to exit the toxic work/relationship/marriage, like the unnamed Amazon employee did.
  - jaredsohn 10y ago
    Exiting the current situation would mean separation/divorce, not ending one's life.
    - devy 10y ago
      My comment was regarding to the ununamed male employee who attempted suicide.
      - mikestew 10y ago
        Then you probably replied to the wrong comment, as my question had nothing to do with what you're on about.
        devy 10y ago
        I probably did and getting massively down voted as a result. But I can't delete it either once someone commented on it.
- mattdeboard 10y ago
  It's not the "get a new spouse" part. It's the "Just" part. Let's assume you're a programmer. Ever get annoyed when someone comes along while you're dealing with a problem and goes, "Why don't you just..." without any acknowledgement of the many complexities? And that if you could "just" do this or that, you fucking would have already? Yeah, it's like that.
  - eanzenberg 10y ago
    That would never annoy me, in fact I supremely enjoy conversing solutions about hard problems where multiple solutions may exist.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    It's the "Just" part. Ah, "it's not always that simple". Fair enough, thanks. (And two down votes already for asking an honest question? Stay classy, HN.)
  - khnd 10y ago
    oh wow +1 for dev whispering skills
- ProAm 10y ago
  Because problems/issues of this scale are not fixed with band-aid type solutions, regardless of who is more at fault.
  - loco5niner 10y ago
    Except, in some situations, one party holds 100% of the blame.
    - ProAm 10y ago
      Doesn't mean its easily fixed.
- norea-armozel 10y ago
  I can tell you two reasons why it's not always the best choice. 1. They're not currently employed which means they would enter into poverty with no exit strategy for that. 2. They have children which means without relatives on both sides of the relationship willing to help with the transition to separation (and possibly divorce if they're married) it's going to be hard to do this. It also means going into poverty in some cases whether or not the person has a job since caring for the material needs of children is an added burden. And if the spouse was also abusing them that means leaving them in their care isn't an option either. Simply put, it's not easy when it comes to leaving one bad situation. Whether it's an abusive employer or an abusive spouse.
jimmywanger 10y ago
No, it's not. You need to have an internal locus of control, or life is just not going to treat you well in any aspect. If you don't truly believe that you can affect your external circumstances by changing your actions, you'll be constantly wondering why crappy things happen to you and looking for external saviours. If you do believe you can change your life, you'll start doing it, and your life is more likely to get better.
- treehau5 10y ago
  Some people chose to live their life more humbly, accepting the cup that was given to them, rather than constantly chase this constant state of utopia, and indeed I can empathize with that. I have heard the stories of many women (unfortunately not so many men, but I am sure they are out there), my mom being one of them, who stay in undesirable circumstances because they pity the other person, and they think that showing them grace and love will help them. They feel if they leave, the selfish act is now on them for leaving them out to dry, because who else is going to love them? Sometimes this is the case and things turn out better, but sometimes it isn't, and the hard part is convincing that other person that they are being taken advantage of, this humbleness and gentleness is being taken advantage of. Sometimes people take the same approach to their jobs, their managers, all other relationships. If they leave, who else will do this job? Then the manager will lose his job, whatever else runs through their minds. Life is never binary.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    > Some people chose to live their life more humbly Then let them. Don't let them complain about what they're going through incessantly. Sure, everybody complains about their job/relationships once in a while, but when that's all you talk/complain about and you get a martyr complex (I have to do this because nobody else will) that's when you remind them that this too is a choice they made.
    - treehau5 10y ago
      Tell someone to "just make a choice" when they work paycheck to paycheck. Tell someone to "just make a choice" when if they leave their abusive relationship, their children will be devistated and they will lose their health insurance. What will you tell them? "Just go get a job with health insurance!"? I hope not. Tell someone "just make a choice" when they have convinced themselves that leaving would be quitting, and it would go against their very fabric of who they self-identify with to do so. So easy to make choices like you describe in hindsight, and when you have ample fallback options. But when you don't it requires great courage and an amazing support system, as well as emotional stability. Most people sadly don't have that, and to sit here and say "well it's a choice you made!" is beyond heartless. If you see someone suffering in a scenario where to you it may seem like "Well stupid! Just make a chose to leave" that is a good sign that you are probably wrong, and don't understand the situation at all. We are human beings, not emotionless robots. Our brains don't go (if desireableSituation !== 1) { leave() } I hope you never have to be in these shoes.

jackmodern 10y ago

she said she quit in the 4th paragraph I think, although when I read the first paragraph this was at least partially my initial thought. at top tech companies people get their ego's and self worth overly intertwined with their job and career progression because people around them are so impressed with the companies they work for, so I see where she is coming from. I had this same experience at Facebook, and I feel for her, but when a manager wants you to quit (as her manager clearly did) take a hint or be prepared to get needled by the boss every time they see you.

qween90 10y ago
If the manager wants a person to quit, why don't they just put the person on Performance Improvement Plan or something equivalent? Instead going through the effort of needling someone every time?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- trav4225 10y ago
  Is "firing" not a thing anymore?
  - jackmodern 10y ago
    if the reason they want you to leave is relationship based (i.e. people don't like you, but you still do your job effectively) then firing isn't really an option due to legal ramifications, PIPs can be though, but not always.
- jackmodern 10y ago
  said this below as well, but relationship issues aren't always PIP worthy if the person does their job well enough outside of being unlikeable.
hinkley 10y ago
at top tech companies people get their ego's and self worth overly intertwined with their job and career progression That is exactly what a pressure cooker is. Your management chain is constantly encouraging you to equate your work quality/quantity with your worth as a human being. You want to be a good person, right? Well Jeff over there is a good person, and he worked longer than you. He also doesn't complain as much as you. Sure, you're complaining about all of Jeff's production bugs that you have to fix, but that's beside the point.

bovermyer 10y ago

You're victim blaming. That makes you wrong-headed and I hope to God I never have the ill fortune to interact with you beyond this forum.

notyourwork 10y ago
> You're victim blaming. This premise assumes the person who attempted suicide was a victim. Perhaps he/she was not mentally fit to work in a high pressure and stressful environment? Pushing code to Amazon.com is a lot different from pushing code to some <insert dinky non-brand name company>. Not everyone is capable of handling the pressure. I don't know one way or the other but you are as easy to dismiss his side of the argument by assuming the person who jumped is the victim. Sorry but you and I and the internet don't know the situation well enough to conclude either direction.
- GotURsolution3 10y ago
  You can generalize it all you want, but you're not looking at the specific case. Perhaps this, perhaps that. The truth of the victim's situation will not be known now. All we can do is point at Amazon or society. But here we are with specific facts. The person was either mentally unfit and our society failed to catch this and help, and forced them to take whatever jobs were available for someone with that skill-level (oh man an Amazon job! They aren't going anywhere anytime soon!). Or Amazon is a shitty place for low-skilled workers. Amazon can be just as culpable for being a known shit-hole. People can be sane and go in and come out nutters at companies, doesn't just happen to programmers. Burnout and occupational stress are real. By saying maybe this person was just nuts, sweeps alternatives under the rug. And whether they were or not isn't relevant now. Amazon or society will still peddle the mantra of "get a job!" and push people that maybe shouldn't have certain roles into them by default.
- trentmb 10y ago
  > Perhaps he/she was not mentally fit to work in a high pressure and stressful environment? Further evidence the hiring process is broken I suppose.
- 10y ago

mikestew 10y ago

I expect to get downvote blasted into oblivion, but maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem, not the company itself. Down voting your comment would disappoint me very much (and as of this writing, it's the top comment). IMO, at worst Amazon is part of a much larger picture. And as you imply, out of X number of people, Y will hurl themselves off a building. Remember the FoxConn hoo-ha a few years back? Yeah, I sat down and compared the reported suicide rates of 400K FoxConn employees versus China in general (I wasn't the only one, as I recall). Turns out, FoxConn folk must be pretty damned happy, actually, as their suicide rate was lower than the general population of China. No, to place blame on Amazon is to ignore the problem. I've worked at far shittier places than Amazon is reported to be, and I didn't take my own life. More was at play than just where this person worked. If we need do anything, we need identify that "more" and fix that.

notyourwork 10y ago
> at worst Amazon is part of a much larger picture. I think this is the crux of the issue with our industry. It is not unique to Amazon, it just so happens they have had a few vocal employees.
- rfrank 10y ago
  Lower level employees at companies like this tend to get deridden for speaking about their situation and told to "just get a new job / move to a new city". This thread, that Yelp girl, and so on. Disapproval of your circumstances or employment situation have to be expressed in just the right tone and wording to be considered valid by some.
mistermann 10y ago
You think this person would have committed suicide wherever they worked, and their experience at Amazon was in no way different than it would have been at any other company? Do you think Amazon is no different than other companies? Is it possible for companies to have different cultures?
- 10y ago

cocktailpeanuts 10y ago

I'll probably get downvoted as well for agreeing with you, but I agree. Committing suicide is not the answer when you have a very clear alternative: Leave and get another job. It is NEVER "courageous" to commit a suicide. I understand why some people do it, but that still doesn't make it "courageous". Committing suicide is running away from reality. Period.

deleted 10y ago
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sharkweek 10y ago
This is grossly oversimplifying suicide... For your consideration: “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.” -David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest
- mos_basik 10y ago
  As I read your comment, I thought, "Wow, this HN user has an amazing command of their words and a disturbingly clear understanding of suicidal ideation." And then it turned out to be a DFW quote. God, he was a compelling writer - and I've only read The Pale King and various essays.

bambax 10y ago

I kind of was with you until If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault. The company's responsibility is not to push "bad" employees to commit suicide; it's to help them improve, or, if that's too difficult or there simply isn't a good fit, to part with them in the best of terms. The question here isn't about the performance of Amazon's employees; it's whether bullying is regarded as an acceptable managing practice.

PascLeRasc 10y ago
Yeah, if a company is going to use the "we're a family" line to make employees spend extra time, then the least they could do is look out for their employee's mental and emotional health.
krisroadruck 10y ago
bit of clarification, I was attempting to say its not the companies fault if you are not a good employee and thus have trouble securing new employment. I was not saying that the company should use the fact that you are a bad employee to push you towards suicide or whatever. I'm not entirely sure how it came off that way.
- mistermann 10y ago
  But pushing this person to suicide is actually what they did! My suspicion is that the reason they didn't notice a mental stability problem is because they probably have hundreds of people going through this at any one time. So, change your management style, or face the wrath of (at least some of) society when they read about this stuff. As a customer I love Amazon, but the more I read about them I would gladly take a hit in the convenience department to take them down several pegs and teach them and Mr. Bezos a lesson.

gdulli 10y ago

No one anecdote, positive or negative, tells us anything definitive. With Amazon there's been a cacophony of consistent negative feedback that by far outweighs what we hear about other large tech companies. Amazon has lost the benefit of the doubt.

sillysaurus3 10y ago

I expect to get downvote blasted into oblivion From the site guidelines: Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

krisroadruck 10y ago
Sorry about that, edited to comply with the rules.

munificent 10y ago

> He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave and said he wish he had the courage to do that. I believe the author is a she.

eanzenberg 10y ago

I agree with you and I'm afraid that current education doesn't give young people the tools to deal with adversity, challenges and failure. They've substituted self-reliance and responsibility with a focus on blaming. I've met a lot of young professionals who have a hard time standing up for themselves because the perceived risk. They are afraid of losing their jobs if they did. Unfortunately they don't realize that company isn't worth their time given the stress. Certain cultures also teach total obedience to your superiors, and this is toxic as well. I think it's unfair to single Amazon out because they aren't unique in this. I've seen it at other large co's and in academia as well. There's abundance of company politics, toxicity, emotions and sludge around and to keep sane, healthy, relatively stress-free requires a toolkit of abilities to help navigate.

stanfordkid 10y ago

People feel incredibly isolated to do things like this. It is a david goliath solution -- so people should become goliaths. Band together, form unions and revolt. Utilize the press and the media, spread hyperbole and make the employer look like shit, make a class action lawsuit. Don't jump off buildings... This is more emblematic of an achievement oriented culture and a nation that judges itself by money than the fault of "Amazon" IMO. No one forces anyone to work there and anyone could probably get a job as a freelance coder or burger flipper. not worth building your identity around.

ethbro 10y ago

> maybe someone who is mentally unbalanced enough to commit suicide over a job is the problem I've perhaps read too much dark science fiction, but I am certain I could construct a functional job environment that would cause anyone to attempt suicide, especially given years. Are there people who have mental health problems? Absolutely. Does wanting to commit suicide because your job is a mentally caustic environment mean you had pre-existing mental health problems? Absolutely not. PS: If you're in that situation, please leave your job. If your company won't transfer you to a new role, find a new company.

AcerbicZero 10y ago

It takes a very special kind of snowflake to take another's suicide and use it as a springboard for their own story about how bad their manager was. Very bizarre indeed.

SpaceManiac 10y ago
It is, at least, honest: "here is someone who did what I was too cowardly to do".

devy 10y ago

Being an outsider like many readers out there, nobody knows what REALLY goes on there inside Amazon. There are stories portraying from both sides. So yeah, I believe what you suggest is possible. However, what I do believe one should not take the job too seriously (if you consider it's such a shitty place to work for.) Your life is too short to be wasted working at some place you feel miserable and your life is too precious to be ended for the sole reason to call out the miserable working condition at any given place.

paublyrne 10y ago
Agreed that you shouldn't take your job so seriously. I think when you're in the eye of the storm of depression, it's not easy to think straight and make decisions that objectively seem logical, like just getting out.

GotURsolution3 10y ago

You're trying to assign logic to a situation where there isn't any. The person was pre-disposed to jumping, you say. Why would they think it's reasonable to consider alternatives? People can be very single-minded. For low-skill workers, a job with shit pay can be all they have. It's quite common to think "I must do well here cause I can't get another job. I'm not $random_bs_reason_they_cant_see_through." Add on the stress of an environment like Amazon, which is pushing people for no reason other than generating money (the faster Amazon is the more people think Amazon is magical, the more they spend at Amazon). The implosion of our system will be due to this ridiculous fetish with fiscal success. It's become the only marker that matters. We care so little for each other, thinking someone else is taking care of people with mental illness, not realizing the system that does that is often too expensive or too broke to do anything. BUT HEY THE STOCK IS UP AND 20 COMPANIES WERE DECLARED UNICORNS! We're reaching the point where it's things like this that will begin to crack that facade. This is an important opening for useful conversation. But we'll probably just debate JS frameworks, instead of the reality that our social safety is a complete joke. Objectivism or gtfo! Upvote/downvote. Doesn't matter. This is a throwaway. I don't have any need for imaginary internet points.

maverick_iceman 10y ago
>Upvote/downvote. Doesn't matter. This is a throwaway. I don't have any need for imaginary internet points. Yet it mattered enough for you to write the last line.
- GotURsolution3 10y ago
  What mattered was letting people know their efforts will be in vain. I'm a believer in emotionally honest communication. That's what mattered by writing it. That's different than looking for upvotes/downvotes. But sure, the first answer you landed on was probably right. Cause you're smart.
phailhaus 10y ago
> I don't have any need for imaginary internet points. Haha, this is so rich, because you seem to care enough to make a throwaway and not link it to your real account.

gist 10y ago

What's interesting about this is we have no data on the number of people working for large companies who commits suicide not on company premises. Ditto for anyone taking their life not working for a company that isn't vilified like Amazon or well known. What if this person had worked at a beloved company would we then be more likely to think it was the person and not the company? Obviously people en mass are not taking their own life working for Amazon. Or any other company that I know of. > He calls the person who jumped off the roof brave I never got how people are called 'brave' in this situation or even if they jump onto train tracks to save the life of a stranger.

droopybuns 10y ago

Everyone I've known at Amazon seems aware of the problems in the environment. Amazon is a high pressure, high growth company. I don't believe that people are missing a sense of compassion for folks who are not compatible with the working situation. I agree with you on the idea that contemplating suicide is problematic- but to say there is a single problem is a gross oversimplification. I don't like this blogpost either- but the problem isn't just a suicidal employee. Managers have an obligation to both the company and their staff to help employees navigate these situations as best as possible. In the case of this jumper, someone might have dropped the ball. It's also just as possible that there was no ball dropped. The CDC says ~42k Americans commit suicide every year. Suicides aren't just about one thing usually. What are the circumstances in the life of the person who jumped that warrant this peevish posting? I don't see anything here other than an opportunistic post by someone emotional. They clearly have been asking for help and continue to suffer on some level. It's exploitative to use someone else's suicide attempt to draw attention to your own employment problems. Whether or not it's their employer that is the true source of the problem is unknowable. This is the Internet! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Twirrim 10y ago

> If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job? That makes an assumption that it's even an option. It's not always so, and not because of competency reasons. 1) Some visas are often tied to specific jobs. You could be putting your continued residency in the country at risk by leaving. 2) Amazon forks out a bunch of money by way of signing bonuses and relocation money etc. etc, which typically tie you to the company for 2 years (it's a reasonable policy, the expense is far from trivial and they need to recoup at least that much in value from your employment). If you don't stay for the 2 years, then you become liable for the entire amount (maybe pro-rated would be better/fairer). It's quite possible that individuals find themselves in a position where they literally can not afford to quit Amazon, unless they can find another employer willing to cover that money.

flukus 10y ago

> If you hate your job, wouldn't the courageous thing be to go get a different job? The word courageous is the real casualty here.

wallace_f 10y ago

>If you are a good employee then getting another job shouldn't be that difficult. Is this always true? I've seen horrible employees get spectacular references for their next job. I've seen incredible employees get snubbed on the way out due to political reasons or personal differences. I've also seen great employees try to leave and the company turn against them. I've also seen employees hired that had spectacular references that turned out to be awful and needed to be terminated.

kafkaesq 10y ago

If you aren't a good employee then it is hardly the company's fault. Everything wrong with America's workaholic white collar ethos, in one soundbite.