5 ms·

>I am not calling Trump a facist but hand-waving away racist policies like deporting all Mexicans (Trump didn't say that, but it was taken that way) or disallow

by r_smart 10y ago

>I am not calling Trump a facist but hand-waving away racist policies like deporting all Mexicans (Trump didn't say that, but it was taken that way) or disallowing all Muslims (again, Trump didn't say that but it was taken that way) as "SJW" is irresponsible. It was taken that way by people opposed to him or trying to cut him down. I've never heard a supporter represent those as his positions, but rather constantly try to accurately represent what was said. If people decide to create absurd straw men, what responsibility do his supporters have to address them? And how does the wildly inaccurate view of his opponents make him or his supporters irresponsible? A system where a fascist government can thrive is one wherein the press is in collusion with the government, and where people prop up ideological narratives in lieu of the truth. When we constantly push to dehumanize our opponents and their supporters, we start taking the first small steps down the ideological road that leads to the horrors of totalitarian governments.

madamelic 10y ago
Yeah, I agree with like 99% of what you are saying. All of that is right. >(From my parent comment) But in the end, what matters more: "some democrat love-relationship with LGBT, environmental stuffs, SJWs, or whatever" -or- "food on your plate, and a place to live in with your family"? What I disagree with is that we have to decide between denigrating others and fixing the economy. We can have both and it is irresponsible to pretend like we have to choose. I am just hoping Trump and Senate Republicans understand that. But my guess is that they'll throw LGBT people under the bus when they need a distraction, which every politician eventually needs. Politicians aren't dumb, their entire livelihood is dependent on knowing how to cater to their base. (Sorry, I feel like my thoughts are becoming a little disjointed from what we are talking about. I buy into like 95% of what Trump supports but I don't buy we need to tear down 'SJW' so the economy can thrive, it is completely illogical to me)
- r_smart 10y ago
  I'm not sure I understand where the Trump is against gays things comes from. He's probably the most pro LGBT Republican candidate in the history of the country, and arguably has a better track record than Clinton. Personally, I think political correctness is a problem, but that seems like a conversation for another time.
  - madamelic 10y ago
    I would definitely agree with the political correctness comment. I think the big issue with Trump isn't that he is anti-LGBT (He is actually quite LGBT friendly... the same cannot be said for Pence though), the issue is that his campaign has signaled that it is okay to not be. It doesn't matter what you believe, you still have to be civil and respectful of others. It doesn't matter what Trump's position is, the issue is his spoken beliefs have somehow morphed into supporting alt-right beliefs.
    - r_smart 10y ago
      I feel like on the LGBT issue, you might be falling into an echo chamber trap. If you have some campaign points that support your claim, I'd be happy to hear them. Points for consideration, particularly as far as campaign messaging goes: -He had Peter Thiel speak at the RNC -During his speech at the RNC he talked about defending LGBT rights and said that it felt good to say that at a Republican gathering and get cheers. Think about that. He has the Republican party cheering for gays. I never thought I'd see the day. -When asked about the bathroom row in N.C. he said he doesn't care what bathroom people use. -He said if Caitlin Jenner visits Trump Tower, she can use any bathroom she wants. Mike Pence is an obvious appeal to the Republican base. I think it's important to keep in mind the the VP tends to not be all that important. Unless the president dies. If you got any friends planning a Trump assassination, remind them of that :) I'd also like to point out that there's a decent chance his stance on this isn't a contrivance (though it might be). The LGBT population isn't considered part of the Republican base, and generally they either ignore or campaign against gays. In a lot of ways, being as openly pro-gay was probably considered a risk by establishment Republicans.
      - madamelic 10y ago
        Oh no, I wasn't meaning Trump himself was anti-LGBT. I was meaning that his campaign was kind of about being politically incorrect which I feel has empowered the alt-right to be more bold. In that, because they perceive Trump as being friendly to their cause, they feel their anti-social behavior is ok. Trump seemed hesitant during the campaign to take a strong stance against alt-right / anti-social thoughts. But maybe I am wrong, I wasn't exactly an avid Trump supporter, hah. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with LGBT people, I actually think it needs to happen more often. There is something wrong with feeling LGBT people are wrong to exist or are 2nd class citizens. As long as Trump stays alive and unimpeached, I am not really worried about LGBT rights. He was pretty direct in that gay marriage was settled (which brings up the whole point about how does he accept Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage but not abortion?)

by r_smart 10y ago

madamelic 10y ago

Yeah, I agree with like 99% of what you are saying. All of that is right. >(From my parent comment) But in the end, what matters more: "some democrat love-relationship with LGBT, environmental stuffs, SJWs, or whatever" -or- "food on your plate, and a place to live in with your family"? What I disagree with is that we have to decide between denigrating others and fixing the economy. We can have both and it is irresponsible to pretend like we have to choose. I am just hoping Trump and Senate Republicans understand that. But my guess is that they'll throw LGBT people under the bus when they need a distraction, which every politician eventually needs. Politicians aren't dumb, their entire livelihood is dependent on knowing how to cater to their base. (Sorry, I feel like my thoughts are becoming a little disjointed from what we are talking about. I buy into like 95% of what Trump supports but I don't buy we need to tear down 'SJW' so the economy can thrive, it is completely illogical to me)

r_smart 10y ago
I'm not sure I understand where the Trump is against gays things comes from. He's probably the most pro LGBT Republican candidate in the history of the country, and arguably has a better track record than Clinton. Personally, I think political correctness is a problem, but that seems like a conversation for another time.
- madamelic 10y ago
  I would definitely agree with the political correctness comment. I think the big issue with Trump isn't that he is anti-LGBT (He is actually quite LGBT friendly... the same cannot be said for Pence though), the issue is that his campaign has signaled that it is okay to not be. It doesn't matter what you believe, you still have to be civil and respectful of others. It doesn't matter what Trump's position is, the issue is his spoken beliefs have somehow morphed into supporting alt-right beliefs.
  - r_smart 10y ago
    I feel like on the LGBT issue, you might be falling into an echo chamber trap. If you have some campaign points that support your claim, I'd be happy to hear them. Points for consideration, particularly as far as campaign messaging goes: -He had Peter Thiel speak at the RNC -During his speech at the RNC he talked about defending LGBT rights and said that it felt good to say that at a Republican gathering and get cheers. Think about that. He has the Republican party cheering for gays. I never thought I'd see the day. -When asked about the bathroom row in N.C. he said he doesn't care what bathroom people use. -He said if Caitlin Jenner visits Trump Tower, she can use any bathroom she wants. Mike Pence is an obvious appeal to the Republican base. I think it's important to keep in mind the the VP tends to not be all that important. Unless the president dies. If you got any friends planning a Trump assassination, remind them of that :) I'd also like to point out that there's a decent chance his stance on this isn't a contrivance (though it might be). The LGBT population isn't considered part of the Republican base, and generally they either ignore or campaign against gays. In a lot of ways, being as openly pro-gay was probably considered a risk by establishment Republicans.
    - madamelic 10y ago
      Oh no, I wasn't meaning Trump himself was anti-LGBT. I was meaning that his campaign was kind of about being politically incorrect which I feel has empowered the alt-right to be more bold. In that, because they perceive Trump as being friendly to their cause, they feel their anti-social behavior is ok. Trump seemed hesitant during the campaign to take a strong stance against alt-right / anti-social thoughts. But maybe I am wrong, I wasn't exactly an avid Trump supporter, hah. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with LGBT people, I actually think it needs to happen more often. There is something wrong with feeling LGBT people are wrong to exist or are 2nd class citizens. As long as Trump stays alive and unimpeached, I am not really worried about LGBT rights. He was pretty direct in that gay marriage was settled (which brings up the whole point about how does he accept Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage but not abortion?)