8 ms·

When was the last time you spoke to people in towns of less than 10k people about their most serious issues? It's so odd to me that Silicon Valley simply can't

When was the last time you spoke to people in towns of less than 10k people about their most serious issues? It's so odd to me that Silicon Valley simply can't comprehend that their values aren't shared by the rest of the country. Literally the only explanation they can produce to explain Trump votes is that everyone must have been brainwashed by Facebook news (despite the fact that millions of voters probably don't even have social media). There was a time when democrats represented the blue collar working class -- who have watched helplessly as their jobs and security has been outsourced to china and Mexico. Now it's Trump who represents their values and clearly they're not alone.

bduerst 10y ago
I grew up in an unincorporated town in WI, so to answer your accusatory question: Sunday was the last time I talked to people in a town <10k. I'm also not sure what "silicon valley sentiment" has to do with wanting enforcement of the Hatch act either. The idea that rural white america is a victim and needs protecting is one of those being spread by the alt-right, and it's wrong to think it justifies manipulating the election. >Have you tried to start a business before? Are you familiar with the debilitating beauracracy and taxes associated with running a small business (15-50 people) that doesn't take venture capital funding? Nope. I'm a computer engineer and everyone should care about what I care about or they're brainwashed. Yes. Yes. And that last remark is uncalled for, since I'm not a computer engineer or think that.
- kefka 10y ago
  > I'm also not sure what "silicon valley sentiment" has to do with wanting enforcement of the Hatch act either. The idea that rural white america is a victim and needs protecting is one of those being spread by the alt-right. I would agree with that, but not for the reasons what the Neo-Nazis would say (seriously, "alt right" is nazis and skinheads). Most small towns had one or 2 companies that propped them up. Vehicles, parts, steel, coal, mining. Good strong stable stuff. Making things, and knowing that the sweat of your brow made that. And they paid well. Real well. $25/hr, $30/hr. And as we went to this "service economy", with many manufacturing jobs eliminated by companies closing, automating, or going elsewhere, it left crappy jobs for these workers. Crappy means working for $8.25/hr, or $10 if you're lucky. And no benefits. No 401k. No insurance. And yeah, Trump has ignited the neo-nazis. But in the end, what matters more: "some democrat love-relationship with LGBT, environmental stuffs, SJWs, or whatever" -or- "food on your plate, and a place to live in with your family"? Because what Trump said is he's going to bring back those jobs. Hope, that these people can get back on their feet. But, well, that won't happen. Too bad it will take 4 years to find out.
  - madamelic 10y ago
    What matters more is we don't create an environment where a facist government can thrive. I am not calling Trump a facist but hand-waving away racist policies like deporting all Mexicans (Trump didn't say that, but it was taken that way) or disallowing all Muslims (again, Trump didn't say that but it was taken that way) as "SJW" is irresponsible. I think we can have a country where both can co-exist. Maybe people need to realize they can't work 35-hour weeks at "the factory" anymore. Those jobs are long gone. That sucks and we need to figure out how to get those people back to work but this whole "bringing back the jobs" is complete political BS.
    - r_smart 10y ago
      >I am not calling Trump a facist but hand-waving away racist policies like deporting all Mexicans (Trump didn't say that, but it was taken that way) or disallowing all Muslims (again, Trump didn't say that but it was taken that way) as "SJW" is irresponsible. It was taken that way by people opposed to him or trying to cut him down. I've never heard a supporter represent those as his positions, but rather constantly try to accurately represent what was said. If people decide to create absurd straw men, what responsibility do his supporters have to address them? And how does the wildly inaccurate view of his opponents make him or his supporters irresponsible? A system where a fascist government can thrive is one wherein the press is in collusion with the government, and where people prop up ideological narratives in lieu of the truth. When we constantly push to dehumanize our opponents and their supporters, we start taking the first small steps down the ideological road that leads to the horrors of totalitarian governments.
      - madamelic 10y ago
        Yeah, I agree with like 99% of what you are saying. All of that is right. >(From my parent comment) But in the end, what matters more: "some democrat love-relationship with LGBT, environmental stuffs, SJWs, or whatever" -or- "food on your plate, and a place to live in with your family"? What I disagree with is that we have to decide between denigrating others and fixing the economy. We can have both and it is irresponsible to pretend like we have to choose. I am just hoping Trump and Senate Republicans understand that. But my guess is that they'll throw LGBT people under the bus when they need a distraction, which every politician eventually needs. Politicians aren't dumb, their entire livelihood is dependent on knowing how to cater to their base. (Sorry, I feel like my thoughts are becoming a little disjointed from what we are talking about. I buy into like 95% of what Trump supports but I don't buy we need to tear down 'SJW' so the economy can thrive, it is completely illogical to me)
GVIrish 10y ago
Here's the thing though, Trump didn't get appreciably more voter turnout than Mitt Romney. Hillary on the other hand, got a lot less Democratic voters to turn out than Obama did. We don't know how much damage Comey's actions in particular did to Hillary's candidacy but there is no doubt that the email scandal damaged her prospects tremendously. > There was a time when democrats represented the blue collar working class -- who have watched helplessly as their jobs and security has been outsourced to china and Mexico. Now it's Trump who represents their values and clearly they're not alone. Trump clearly tapped into that sentiment, particularly on trade deals. However, the Republican party has largely pushed policies that increase income inequality and hurt blue collar workers for some time now. Republicans have consistently attempted to weaken unions that tended to benefit blue collar workers. Republican voters don't tend to hold them to account for that because the GOP campaigns successfully on wedge social issues, conservative media still largely supports trickle down economics and said social issues. Fake media only reinforces the echo chamber there. Unfortunately there isn't much honest discourse on what to do about the effects of globalization and automation on the blue collar workforce now and into the future. I suspect that the job-reducing effects will continue to be used as a weapon for grievance politics but effective policy solutions will be hard to come by.
- curried_haskell 10y ago
  Hillary's campaign failed because it was so fucking forced. Come on guys, you have to vote for Hillary because she's a woman and its her turn and shame on you for thinking this was a democratic process. I think a lot of Democrats were put off and disillusioned. Hillary wasn't a candidate to be excited about, she was the candidate waiting in line whom you were told you had to vote for. And so people stayed home.
  - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
    I was very upset at the DNC's very visible (no thanks to Russian hackers) attempt to discredit and downplay the Bernie campaign.
  - tomp 10y ago
    > Come on guys, you have to vote for Hillary because she's a woman For me, one of the biggest WTFs this election season was when I noticed that Hillary was literally selling "woman cards" on her website. The article below mentions at was meant as a joke, though I'm not sure most people took it that way... http://fortune.com/2016/04/29/clinton-issuing-woman-cards/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/29/clinton-issuing-woman-cards/
threatofrain 10y ago
Small towns of 10k? What about the city of hundred thousands? Or the city of millions? Off the top of your head, would you mind speculating as to what % of America lives in cities or urban environments? Are we forgetting that small states and small districts generally get an unjust magnitude of political power? That the gerrymandering game of the last 30 years have favored these small states with small districts? Are all American lives equal or do those who live in cities matter less? The answer is yes. American lives are equal, and those who live in cities are worth less. Trump did not win the populist victory. Hillary Clinton did. This is twice in recent memory that the majority of the United States was overruled by the minority. As people criticize Hillary Clinton for arrogantly not visiting states and cities she thought were victories, do people in those states not realize that they get an unjust magnitude of power and influence every time election season rolls around? And that big cities and states basically get zero attention? And why? Is it because big states like California or Texas are unworthy? Yes, thanks to the structure of American politics and districting. The Texan economy is doing great by the way. Or did you think that Trump is a populist candidate? So popular that he didn't win the popular vote? Do you believe that Trump will ever win the popular vote? How long should American voters remember that they were twice denied by minority voices? For how many years ought they bear this stain in their trust in government legitimacy?
- basch 10y ago
  >This is twice in recent memory that the majority of the United States was overruled by the minority. Which means nothing because they were not playing a popular vote contest. We will never know who would have won, on that day, in a pure popular vote contest. Winning the popular vote and losing the contest means you miscalculated, and misprovisioned your campaign resources, focusing too heavily on areas you already won.
  - threatofrain 10y ago
    The name of the game that's being played is gerrymandering.
    - 10y ago
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>There was a time when democrats represented the blue collar working class -- who have watched helplessly as their jobs and security has been outsourced to china and Mexico. Now it's Trump who represents their values and clearly they're not alone. Judging by the way blue-collar communities turned out for Bernie Sanders, I don't think "their values" are the fascist tripe being pushed by the Trump campaign and transition stuff. No, blue-collar people are not automatically violent rubes who want to throw Jews, Muslims, and Hispanics from the country while reinstituting slavery and criminalizing abortion -- while telling people wages are too high.
- matt_wulfeck 10y ago
  I was ready for Bernie. I changed my party affiliation so I could vote for him in the primaries. Are you as upset as I am at the DNC's collusion to suppress his campaign?
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    Of course I'm upset. I'm upset enough that I joined Democratic Socialists of America and have been involved in activism, rather than just getting mad and sending money to corporate shills on occasion.
rconti 10y ago
IMO, Democrats are STILL speaking to the plight of the poor far more than the Republicans are. The problem is, whether through 'natural' forces, the destruction of union power, etc, most of the "we fight for the poor" is about implementing social programs, and, at best, the minimum wage. But most people don't want handouts. Most people want to be proud and find value from their work. The Republican party doesn't show more interest in this than they have in the past, but neither does the Democratic party. Trump can appeal because he can tell them they can have THEIR jobs back. THEIR past glory. Something they were proud of. This is very different from telling a 50 year old "don't worry, we'll send you to 6 months of 'retraining' and you can start your career over in a minimum wage job -- but don't worry, it'll be the NEW minimum wage, $1 higher than the old one!" Now, obviously Trump can't deliver on his promise. But then again, neither has anyone else, and at least his promise is appealing to them.
joesmo 10y ago
Why don't the people you refer to get an actual education and make themselves employable rather than sitting around and waiting for jobs to fall in their laps simply because they're white Americans who feel entitled to work? That time in America is long gone. Maybe then they'll be able to have an actual educated conversation rather than spewing out hate and stupidity. Yet the highest level of achievement most of these idiots aspire to is a GED or High School diploma. They simply don't realize that if you only have one of those in America you are extremely stupid and you will be extremely poor, yet that is exactly what they voted for in this election and elections prior. Then they complain that their stupidity leads to a shitty life and blame it on 'the other side' because they are too feeble minded to actually understand any issues. Having an intelligent conversation with such people is impossible.
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  You're ignoring the fact that inequality has increased in a measurable way, it's not something that can be solved on an individual level. As the saying goes, when your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession - when you lose yours it's a depression. Also, by definition, not everyone can out-compete the average, if everyone in the country had a PhD, there'd still be unemployment. Not everyone in such a large country can do the same thing. And yes, maybe lots of these people are stupid. But they're part of society, and societal problems manifest themselves in ways that assuredly don't benefit people like you.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > And yes, maybe lots of these people are stupid. But they're part of society, and societal problems manifest themselves in ways that assuredly don't benefit people like you. Everyone seems to forget this. A large part of society is simply not cut out for academia and they still need to make a life for themselves somehow.

bduerst 10y ago

I grew up in an unincorporated town in WI, so to answer your accusatory question: Sunday was the last time I talked to people in a town <10k. I'm also not sure what "silicon valley sentiment" has to do with wanting enforcement of the Hatch act either. The idea that rural white america is a victim and needs protecting is one of those being spread by the alt-right, and it's wrong to think it justifies manipulating the election. >Have you tried to start a business before? Are you familiar with the debilitating beauracracy and taxes associated with running a small business (15-50 people) that doesn't take venture capital funding? Nope. I'm a computer engineer and everyone should care about what I care about or they're brainwashed. Yes. Yes. And that last remark is uncalled for, since I'm not a computer engineer or think that.

kefka 10y ago
> I'm also not sure what "silicon valley sentiment" has to do with wanting enforcement of the Hatch act either. The idea that rural white america is a victim and needs protecting is one of those being spread by the alt-right. I would agree with that, but not for the reasons what the Neo-Nazis would say (seriously, "alt right" is nazis and skinheads). Most small towns had one or 2 companies that propped them up. Vehicles, parts, steel, coal, mining. Good strong stable stuff. Making things, and knowing that the sweat of your brow made that. And they paid well. Real well. $25/hr, $30/hr. And as we went to this "service economy", with many manufacturing jobs eliminated by companies closing, automating, or going elsewhere, it left crappy jobs for these workers. Crappy means working for $8.25/hr, or $10 if you're lucky. And no benefits. No 401k. No insurance. And yeah, Trump has ignited the neo-nazis. But in the end, what matters more: "some democrat love-relationship with LGBT, environmental stuffs, SJWs, or whatever" -or- "food on your plate, and a place to live in with your family"? Because what Trump said is he's going to bring back those jobs. Hope, that these people can get back on their feet. But, well, that won't happen. Too bad it will take 4 years to find out.
- madamelic 10y ago
  What matters more is we don't create an environment where a facist government can thrive. I am not calling Trump a facist but hand-waving away racist policies like deporting all Mexicans (Trump didn't say that, but it was taken that way) or disallowing all Muslims (again, Trump didn't say that but it was taken that way) as "SJW" is irresponsible. I think we can have a country where both can co-exist. Maybe people need to realize they can't work 35-hour weeks at "the factory" anymore. Those jobs are long gone. That sucks and we need to figure out how to get those people back to work but this whole "bringing back the jobs" is complete political BS.
  - r_smart 10y ago
    >I am not calling Trump a facist but hand-waving away racist policies like deporting all Mexicans (Trump didn't say that, but it was taken that way) or disallowing all Muslims (again, Trump didn't say that but it was taken that way) as "SJW" is irresponsible. It was taken that way by people opposed to him or trying to cut him down. I've never heard a supporter represent those as his positions, but rather constantly try to accurately represent what was said. If people decide to create absurd straw men, what responsibility do his supporters have to address them? And how does the wildly inaccurate view of his opponents make him or his supporters irresponsible? A system where a fascist government can thrive is one wherein the press is in collusion with the government, and where people prop up ideological narratives in lieu of the truth. When we constantly push to dehumanize our opponents and their supporters, we start taking the first small steps down the ideological road that leads to the horrors of totalitarian governments.
    - madamelic 10y ago
      Yeah, I agree with like 99% of what you are saying. All of that is right. >(From my parent comment) But in the end, what matters more: "some democrat love-relationship with LGBT, environmental stuffs, SJWs, or whatever" -or- "food on your plate, and a place to live in with your family"? What I disagree with is that we have to decide between denigrating others and fixing the economy. We can have both and it is irresponsible to pretend like we have to choose. I am just hoping Trump and Senate Republicans understand that. But my guess is that they'll throw LGBT people under the bus when they need a distraction, which every politician eventually needs. Politicians aren't dumb, their entire livelihood is dependent on knowing how to cater to their base. (Sorry, I feel like my thoughts are becoming a little disjointed from what we are talking about. I buy into like 95% of what Trump supports but I don't buy we need to tear down 'SJW' so the economy can thrive, it is completely illogical to me)

GVIrish 10y ago

Here's the thing though, Trump didn't get appreciably more voter turnout than Mitt Romney. Hillary on the other hand, got a lot less Democratic voters to turn out than Obama did. We don't know how much damage Comey's actions in particular did to Hillary's candidacy but there is no doubt that the email scandal damaged her prospects tremendously. > There was a time when democrats represented the blue collar working class -- who have watched helplessly as their jobs and security has been outsourced to china and Mexico. Now it's Trump who represents their values and clearly they're not alone. Trump clearly tapped into that sentiment, particularly on trade deals. However, the Republican party has largely pushed policies that increase income inequality and hurt blue collar workers for some time now. Republicans have consistently attempted to weaken unions that tended to benefit blue collar workers. Republican voters don't tend to hold them to account for that because the GOP campaigns successfully on wedge social issues, conservative media still largely supports trickle down economics and said social issues. Fake media only reinforces the echo chamber there. Unfortunately there isn't much honest discourse on what to do about the effects of globalization and automation on the blue collar workforce now and into the future. I suspect that the job-reducing effects will continue to be used as a weapon for grievance politics but effective policy solutions will be hard to come by.

curried_haskell 10y ago
Hillary's campaign failed because it was so fucking forced. Come on guys, you have to vote for Hillary because she's a woman and its her turn and shame on you for thinking this was a democratic process. I think a lot of Democrats were put off and disillusioned. Hillary wasn't a candidate to be excited about, she was the candidate waiting in line whom you were told you had to vote for. And so people stayed home.
- matt_wulfeck 10y ago
  I was very upset at the DNC's very visible (no thanks to Russian hackers) attempt to discredit and downplay the Bernie campaign.
- tomp 10y ago
  > Come on guys, you have to vote for Hillary because she's a woman For me, one of the biggest WTFs this election season was when I noticed that Hillary was literally selling "woman cards" on her website. The article below mentions at was meant as a joke, though I'm not sure most people took it that way... http://fortune.com/2016/04/29/clinton-issuing-woman-cards/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/29/clinton-issuing-woman-cards/

threatofrain 10y ago

Small towns of 10k? What about the city of hundred thousands? Or the city of millions? Off the top of your head, would you mind speculating as to what % of America lives in cities or urban environments? Are we forgetting that small states and small districts generally get an unjust magnitude of political power? That the gerrymandering game of the last 30 years have favored these small states with small districts? Are all American lives equal or do those who live in cities matter less? The answer is yes. American lives are equal, and those who live in cities are worth less. Trump did not win the populist victory. Hillary Clinton did. This is twice in recent memory that the majority of the United States was overruled by the minority. As people criticize Hillary Clinton for arrogantly not visiting states and cities she thought were victories, do people in those states not realize that they get an unjust magnitude of power and influence every time election season rolls around? And that big cities and states basically get zero attention? And why? Is it because big states like California or Texas are unworthy? Yes, thanks to the structure of American politics and districting. The Texan economy is doing great by the way. Or did you think that Trump is a populist candidate? So popular that he didn't win the popular vote? Do you believe that Trump will ever win the popular vote? How long should American voters remember that they were twice denied by minority voices? For how many years ought they bear this stain in their trust in government legitimacy?

basch 10y ago
>This is twice in recent memory that the majority of the United States was overruled by the minority. Which means nothing because they were not playing a popular vote contest. We will never know who would have won, on that day, in a pure popular vote contest. Winning the popular vote and losing the contest means you miscalculated, and misprovisioned your campaign resources, focusing too heavily on areas you already won.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  The name of the game that's being played is gerrymandering.
  - 10y ago

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>There was a time when democrats represented the blue collar working class -- who have watched helplessly as their jobs and security has been outsourced to china and Mexico. Now it's Trump who represents their values and clearly they're not alone. Judging by the way blue-collar communities turned out for Bernie Sanders, I don't think "their values" are the fascist tripe being pushed by the Trump campaign and transition stuff. No, blue-collar people are not automatically violent rubes who want to throw Jews, Muslims, and Hispanics from the country while reinstituting slavery and criminalizing abortion -- while telling people wages are too high.

matt_wulfeck 10y ago
I was ready for Bernie. I changed my party affiliation so I could vote for him in the primaries. Are you as upset as I am at the DNC's collusion to suppress his campaign?
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Of course I'm upset. I'm upset enough that I joined Democratic Socialists of America and have been involved in activism, rather than just getting mad and sending money to corporate shills on occasion.

rconti 10y ago

IMO, Democrats are STILL speaking to the plight of the poor far more than the Republicans are. The problem is, whether through 'natural' forces, the destruction of union power, etc, most of the "we fight for the poor" is about implementing social programs, and, at best, the minimum wage. But most people don't want handouts. Most people want to be proud and find value from their work. The Republican party doesn't show more interest in this than they have in the past, but neither does the Democratic party. Trump can appeal because he can tell them they can have THEIR jobs back. THEIR past glory. Something they were proud of. This is very different from telling a 50 year old "don't worry, we'll send you to 6 months of 'retraining' and you can start your career over in a minimum wage job -- but don't worry, it'll be the NEW minimum wage, $1 higher than the old one!" Now, obviously Trump can't deliver on his promise. But then again, neither has anyone else, and at least his promise is appealing to them.

joesmo 10y ago

Why don't the people you refer to get an actual education and make themselves employable rather than sitting around and waiting for jobs to fall in their laps simply because they're white Americans who feel entitled to work? That time in America is long gone. Maybe then they'll be able to have an actual educated conversation rather than spewing out hate and stupidity. Yet the highest level of achievement most of these idiots aspire to is a GED or High School diploma. They simply don't realize that if you only have one of those in America you are extremely stupid and you will be extremely poor, yet that is exactly what they voted for in this election and elections prior. Then they complain that their stupidity leads to a shitty life and blame it on 'the other side' because they are too feeble minded to actually understand any issues. Having an intelligent conversation with such people is impossible.

Mikeb85 10y ago
You're ignoring the fact that inequality has increased in a measurable way, it's not something that can be solved on an individual level. As the saying goes, when your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession - when you lose yours it's a depression. Also, by definition, not everyone can out-compete the average, if everyone in the country had a PhD, there'd still be unemployment. Not everyone in such a large country can do the same thing. And yes, maybe lots of these people are stupid. But they're part of society, and societal problems manifest themselves in ways that assuredly don't benefit people like you.
- flukus 10y ago
  > And yes, maybe lots of these people are stupid. But they're part of society, and societal problems manifest themselves in ways that assuredly don't benefit people like you. Everyone seems to forget this. A large part of society is simply not cut out for academia and they still need to make a life for themselves somehow.