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I find the rather scant coverage of election topics on HN to be a glaring warning in its own right... if the technocratic class is focused on bricklaying (Go, T

by glup 10y ago

I find the rather scant coverage of election topics on HN to be a glaring warning in its own right... if the technocratic class is focused on bricklaying (Go, TensorFlow, Docker, etc.), who is deciding what gets built at the macro level? Maybe it's time we all take responsibility for creating a fair, just, open, and economically robust society?

StephenConnell 10y ago
Good point, but I appreciate the scant coverage on HN.
- mturmon 10y ago
  Yeah, the problem with politics on HN is that HN readers typically don't bring much depth to the discussion.
- baq 10y ago
  i'll be less blunt than the OP: the fact that politics pisses you off is fine, but the fact that people who are able to see through this bullshit (which is what makes you pissed off, i assume) don't want to be involved is very bad. "somebody else's problem" and "it's not going to be that bad (again)" clearly aren't working.
drewrv 10y ago
I agree that hackers and techies should be more civic minded, it's really a disgrace how ill informed we are on something so important. Unfortunately the site guidlines pretty explicitly declare politics off topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tdb7893 10y ago
I think that the problem is very complicated and doesn't have a simple technical fix so I'm not sure a primarily tech forum is the right place for it.
sgslo 10y ago
I know its fun to think of us tech crowd as being somehow superior to the rest of the populace, but nothing could be further from the truth. We are just as ignorant and naive as the next set of folks down the line. Believing anything else is craziness.
- Amezarak 10y ago
  This is very true. Putting engineers and scientists in politics doesn't make better politics. There have been lots of STEM-turned politician types, and there have been for hundreds if not thousands of years, and they're no better or worse than the others.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  I agree that it's a trap to think that working in tech makes us inherently smarter or more capable. But, I think our particular perspectives and biases are valuable to understanding the world outside of tech, if only because what we do has a significant influence on so many peoples experiences of the world. Consider: Trump's campaign relying so heavily on social media; social media as a recruiting and organizational tools for extremist organizations; the issue of fake news sites; the role tech plays in enabling/accelerating globalization; tech as integral to global surveillance apparatuses. > We are just as ignorant and naive as the next set of folks down the line. Sure, averaged out over the variety of ways a person can be ignorant and naive (emotionally, financially, politically, etc). But nonetheless I think it would behoove us to stay engaged and reflective about our role in the world beyond tech, rather than saying "Nope, nothing for us to discuss, just keep laying the bricks".
  - drewcrawford 10y ago
    I agree with you that we should be engaged, but I don't think there's a simple solution. > Trump's campaign relying so heavily on social media; social media as a recruiting and organizational tools for extremist organizations; the issue of fake news sites; the role tech plays in enabling/accelerating globalization; tech as integral to global surveillance apparatuses. These are all interesting points, but I don't think they explain Trump's win. Trump's win was about a voting demographic that felt Washington, and to a lesser extent, cities generally – were out of touch with their problems and they were willing to overlook flaws that are core values for us to get there. It was also about another voting demographic that may have been appalled at Trump on a personal level but not in a way that translated to 2008 turnout. It was also about a political system that turned out two very disliked candidates and produced one of the most extraordinarily negative campaigns in history. Technology played a small hand in greasing each of those, but it did not create any of them. Nor can it fix them. It is human nature, perhaps, to focus on things we can control in dire situations. As technologists, we can control technology. But creating a webapp to combat fake news is not going to make Washington feel in touch, motivate voter turnout, or fix the primaries. It won't do anything actually, because Politifact already exists. If we want to do something, we need to do something that strikes at a real problem. Perhaps that requires technology, but what it requires more is empathy. Too many technologists and not enough empathists. Don't get me wrong, build a webapp if that helps you. I build antisurveillance tech, it helps me. But I also know that being reactionary and clique-ey got us into this mess. It won't get us out.
geofft 10y ago
What gets built, of course, is what the market opportunities are. I don't think we've had a serious conversation about how, say, IBM responded to the genuinely profitable market opportunities in big data in the US and Germany in the 1940s. The physicists, for their part, had their soul-searching after realizing what it was they'd researched, and how even having the technology meant it was at risk of being used to kill. Of course the technology is going to get researched at some point, and they knew that, but they got themselves involved in the political process, working on disarmament and peace. That conversation never happened among the computer scientists, despite our technology enabling an order or two of magnitude more deaths.
jskopek 10y ago
I'm assuming you are talking about US election topics? Please keep in mind that the readership of Hacker News covers a much larger base than the United States. Technology is not bound by geography as much as politics, and therefore is often more interesting and relevant to the whole world.
dsjoerg 10y ago
I would be interested in a forum where we can discuss how to creeate "a fair, just, open, and economically robust society", but I wouldn't want it to be HN. I want those two to be separate. As a side note, I'm sure fora like that exist already... anyone care to recommend some?
mirekrusin 10y ago
Wasn't the idea that we create AI first then we ask it?
ams6110 10y ago
I come here in big part because politics is not much involved. You need to be careful about injecting politics into things that people traditionally have relied on as an escape from that. See NFL declining ratings.
- __derek__ 10y ago
  I'm curious when you see the injection of politics into the NFL happening.
  - guildwriter 10y ago
    I believe he is referring to Colin Kaepernick and his actions on the field (taking the knee during the national anthem to bring attention to police shootings) as well as his statements to the press about other political matters. Rightly or wrongly, many people are not pleased with this. Especially as other players have either joined in or spoken out.
    - __derek__ 10y ago
      Got it. It seems that the NFL has always been political in some way, from racism and homophobia to the military-industrial complex. I reckon it depends on where one sits, though.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
mancerayder 10y ago
Well, have you ever tried to submit a political article? Even from very mainstream sources? It gets flagged within seconds - it's flagged like a rotten vegetable in the fridge that has to be tossed right away. How an article like this one didn't get flagged is surprising to me. Actually, HN is pretty direct, the moderators have explained many times how it's not within policy to promote political discussions. On the one hand, I get it: these are terribly subjective, more so than some Go hack, or release of a new version of Python major release. On the other hand, a lot of the people are smart, sometimes domain experts. It's fascinating and rewarding to read a back-and-forth between two calm, but fully disagreeing individuals. My secret wish is some sort of "HN Politics" or "HN Social" or something. The .js frameworks discussions and the weekly 'tech interview' complaints get tiring.
- dmode 10y ago
  Oh boy, would love "HN Politics". There is nothing better than discussing important issues with intelligent people without the mudslinging.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  But if the politics article even slightly brushes on encryption or privacy, to the front page of HN it goes.
KirinDave 10y ago
I hate to break it to you, but you're late to the party. Several tech savvy media firms are already in on the game. Part of that game is being in the news as little as possible.
antisthenes 10y ago
Building software is a task for experts, who have spent years if not decades learning the technical sciences. It's going to be next impossible for someone who has such a deep knowledge of a field to re-specialize into a policy economist and also retain their previous skills. You don't see economists deciding and dictating you how software should be built and what technological stack to use, presumably because they have the foresight to assume you are an expert in your field and can do so better than them. My point is thus: leave it to the experts in their own field. The hubris required to believe that software engineers can somehow "take responsibility" overnight to create a "fair, just, open, and economically robust society" and do so better than experts, is astonishing. This isn't directed in particular at anyone and isn't mean as an insult, but the amount of economic illiteracy here on HN is staggering, but that's not the annoying part. The annoying part is that there is at the very least a vocal minority of software engineers who believe they have the solutions to hard problems in other fields, typically negligent of the problems and of the nuances of that field and most frequently of limitations of human nature itself.
abandonliberty 10y ago
Like most communities we focus on policy decisions that affect us, but not the root causes that lead to those decisions. The problems are systemic. It's not Hillary or Trump. We haven't figured out how to make mass organization work effectively.

by glup 10y ago

StephenConnell 10y ago

Good point, but I appreciate the scant coverage on HN.

mturmon 10y ago
Yeah, the problem with politics on HN is that HN readers typically don't bring much depth to the discussion.
baq 10y ago
i'll be less blunt than the OP: the fact that politics pisses you off is fine, but the fact that people who are able to see through this bullshit (which is what makes you pissed off, i assume) don't want to be involved is very bad. "somebody else's problem" and "it's not going to be that bad (again)" clearly aren't working.

drewrv 10y ago

I agree that hackers and techies should be more civic minded, it's really a disgrace how ill informed we are on something so important. Unfortunately the site guidlines pretty explicitly declare politics off topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tdb7893 10y ago

I think that the problem is very complicated and doesn't have a simple technical fix so I'm not sure a primarily tech forum is the right place for it.

sgslo 10y ago

I know its fun to think of us tech crowd as being somehow superior to the rest of the populace, but nothing could be further from the truth. We are just as ignorant and naive as the next set of folks down the line. Believing anything else is craziness.

Amezarak 10y ago
This is very true. Putting engineers and scientists in politics doesn't make better politics. There have been lots of STEM-turned politician types, and there have been for hundreds if not thousands of years, and they're no better or worse than the others.
MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
I agree that it's a trap to think that working in tech makes us inherently smarter or more capable. But, I think our particular perspectives and biases are valuable to understanding the world outside of tech, if only because what we do has a significant influence on so many peoples experiences of the world. Consider: Trump's campaign relying so heavily on social media; social media as a recruiting and organizational tools for extremist organizations; the issue of fake news sites; the role tech plays in enabling/accelerating globalization; tech as integral to global surveillance apparatuses. > We are just as ignorant and naive as the next set of folks down the line. Sure, averaged out over the variety of ways a person can be ignorant and naive (emotionally, financially, politically, etc). But nonetheless I think it would behoove us to stay engaged and reflective about our role in the world beyond tech, rather than saying "Nope, nothing for us to discuss, just keep laying the bricks".
- drewcrawford 10y ago
  I agree with you that we should be engaged, but I don't think there's a simple solution. > Trump's campaign relying so heavily on social media; social media as a recruiting and organizational tools for extremist organizations; the issue of fake news sites; the role tech plays in enabling/accelerating globalization; tech as integral to global surveillance apparatuses. These are all interesting points, but I don't think they explain Trump's win. Trump's win was about a voting demographic that felt Washington, and to a lesser extent, cities generally – were out of touch with their problems and they were willing to overlook flaws that are core values for us to get there. It was also about another voting demographic that may have been appalled at Trump on a personal level but not in a way that translated to 2008 turnout. It was also about a political system that turned out two very disliked candidates and produced one of the most extraordinarily negative campaigns in history. Technology played a small hand in greasing each of those, but it did not create any of them. Nor can it fix them. It is human nature, perhaps, to focus on things we can control in dire situations. As technologists, we can control technology. But creating a webapp to combat fake news is not going to make Washington feel in touch, motivate voter turnout, or fix the primaries. It won't do anything actually, because Politifact already exists. If we want to do something, we need to do something that strikes at a real problem. Perhaps that requires technology, but what it requires more is empathy. Too many technologists and not enough empathists. Don't get me wrong, build a webapp if that helps you. I build antisurveillance tech, it helps me. But I also know that being reactionary and clique-ey got us into this mess. It won't get us out.

geofft 10y ago

What gets built, of course, is what the market opportunities are. I don't think we've had a serious conversation about how, say, IBM responded to the genuinely profitable market opportunities in big data in the US and Germany in the 1940s. The physicists, for their part, had their soul-searching after realizing what it was they'd researched, and how even having the technology meant it was at risk of being used to kill. Of course the technology is going to get researched at some point, and they knew that, but they got themselves involved in the political process, working on disarmament and peace. That conversation never happened among the computer scientists, despite our technology enabling an order or two of magnitude more deaths.

jskopek 10y ago

I'm assuming you are talking about US election topics? Please keep in mind that the readership of Hacker News covers a much larger base than the United States. Technology is not bound by geography as much as politics, and therefore is often more interesting and relevant to the whole world.

dsjoerg 10y ago

I would be interested in a forum where we can discuss how to creeate "a fair, just, open, and economically robust society", but I wouldn't want it to be HN. I want those two to be separate. As a side note, I'm sure fora like that exist already... anyone care to recommend some?

mirekrusin 10y ago

Wasn't the idea that we create AI first then we ask it?

ams6110 10y ago

I come here in big part because politics is not much involved. You need to be careful about injecting politics into things that people traditionally have relied on as an escape from that. See NFL declining ratings.

__derek__ 10y ago
I'm curious when you see the injection of politics into the NFL happening.
- guildwriter 10y ago
  I believe he is referring to Colin Kaepernick and his actions on the field (taking the knee during the national anthem to bring attention to police shootings) as well as his statements to the press about other political matters. Rightly or wrongly, many people are not pleased with this. Especially as other players have either joined in or spoken out.
  - __derek__ 10y ago
    Got it. It seems that the NFL has always been political in some way, from racism and homophobia to the military-industrial complex. I reckon it depends on where one sits, though.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]

mancerayder 10y ago

Well, have you ever tried to submit a political article? Even from very mainstream sources? It gets flagged within seconds - it's flagged like a rotten vegetable in the fridge that has to be tossed right away. How an article like this one didn't get flagged is surprising to me. Actually, HN is pretty direct, the moderators have explained many times how it's not within policy to promote political discussions. On the one hand, I get it: these are terribly subjective, more so than some Go hack, or release of a new version of Python major release. On the other hand, a lot of the people are smart, sometimes domain experts. It's fascinating and rewarding to read a back-and-forth between two calm, but fully disagreeing individuals. My secret wish is some sort of "HN Politics" or "HN Social" or something. The .js frameworks discussions and the weekly 'tech interview' complaints get tiring.

dmode 10y ago
Oh boy, would love "HN Politics". There is nothing better than discussing important issues with intelligent people without the mudslinging.
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
But if the politics article even slightly brushes on encryption or privacy, to the front page of HN it goes.

KirinDave 10y ago

I hate to break it to you, but you're late to the party. Several tech savvy media firms are already in on the game. Part of that game is being in the news as little as possible.

antisthenes 10y ago

Building software is a task for experts, who have spent years if not decades learning the technical sciences. It's going to be next impossible for someone who has such a deep knowledge of a field to re-specialize into a policy economist and also retain their previous skills. You don't see economists deciding and dictating you how software should be built and what technological stack to use, presumably because they have the foresight to assume you are an expert in your field and can do so better than them. My point is thus: leave it to the experts in their own field. The hubris required to believe that software engineers can somehow "take responsibility" overnight to create a "fair, just, open, and economically robust society" and do so better than experts, is astonishing. This isn't directed in particular at anyone and isn't mean as an insult, but the amount of economic illiteracy here on HN is staggering, but that's not the annoying part. The annoying part is that there is at the very least a vocal minority of software engineers who believe they have the solutions to hard problems in other fields, typically negligent of the problems and of the nuances of that field and most frequently of limitations of human nature itself.

abandonliberty 10y ago

Like most communities we focus on policy decisions that affect us, but not the root causes that lead to those decisions. The problems are systemic. It's not Hillary or Trump. We haven't figured out how to make mass organization work effectively.