5 ms·

Has there been as contentious a Mac release as there has been with the new MBPs? I've been using Macs since the mid 80s, and I'm trying to think of some, but a

Has there been as contentious a Mac release as there has been with the new MBPs? I've been using Macs since the mid 80s, and I'm trying to think of some, but am drawing a blank. The only possibilities I can think of are the two processor switches (680x0 -> PPC followed by PPC -> Intel) or maybe the first release of OSX (but that's not necesarily hardware related).

dogma1138 10y ago
GPU issues plagued some previous models also but not this early, usually after 1-2 years due to less than optimal thermal design, but Apple usually had an extended warranty program for those. I don't remember a release with so many weird issues, that honestly should've been picked up pretty early during the design and acceptance phases.
- slantyyz 10y ago
  Yeah, the GPU issues - but like you said they didn't manifest themselves right away. I got hit by the 2011 MBP issue a year or so in. I had to buy a new laptop because Apple didn't issue the repair order until well after my AppleCare expired and I wasn't going to pay $500+ for the repair not knowing whether Apple would eventually pick up the tab.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    TBH not any less excusable since laptops should be tested in a thermal chamber and for a long duration, but PR wise it wasn't this bad. And what's worse it just hints a deeper issues, the 6/6plus bendgate and the more recent display gate were kinda meh, now this line which not only had some questionable design choices but also has multiple hardware issues. Things just seem to be broken.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      Usually the predictable venom comes from Apple haters, but with this particular release, a lot of the venom has actually come from Apple lovers, which is what makes this particular release so noteworthy in my opinion.
      - hyperbovine 10y ago
        Hypothesis: 4-5 years ago a lot of people bought the rMBP, which continues to be, in my opinion, the greatest laptop ever made. We were looking forward to upgrading to something even more spectacular in a year or two. Instead, Apple gave us a gimmicky touch bar, beta quality USB-C ports, no MagSafe, and no indication that they see any of this as anything but swell. People are disappointed.
      - gurkendoktor 10y ago
        Because the MBP matters so much to techies. Technically, the 12" MacBook was worse than the MBP refresh in every way: Only one USB-C port, extremely underpowered, flimsy keyboard. Commenters everywhere ridiculed it, but it was obviously an "optional" product. So what, Apple often releases things that are too far ahead of the curve for most people. (Voice-controlled iPod shuffle, anyone?) But by calling it the new MacBook Pro, they've pretty much guaranteed that none of its laptops will ever be thicker again, or come with "older" ports, or with a traditional keyboard. They've put upper limits on all its laptops now. It's not that I am disinterested in the 2016 release. I also can't imagine how the 2017-2019 releases could possibly appeal to me, unless they surprise us with a MacBook Pro SE. This is not like the disappointing 2014 Mac mini, which Apple can fix overnight just by updating the parts. knocks on wood...
  - engi_nerd 10y ago
    It took 4 years for the GPU in my 2011 MBP to die. Apple still covers GPU repairs on those models (or at least they did in 2015). They refused service on my laptop because I had upgraded the hard drive (to an SSD) and RAM (upgraded to 16 Gigs). I pointed out that the user's manual for the 2011 Macbook Pro specifically says that upgrading these components does not void the warranty for the entire machine, just that Apple will not cover your new HD and RAM (rightfully so). Apple customer support refused to live up to the text of their manual, even when I read directly from it and requested that they repair the faulty GPU because I had remained within the terms of the manual. They lost my business.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      I was in a very similar boat to you. Mine died right (weeks) after my AppleCare ended. Because a local authorized Apple dealer would fix it without an appointment (vs the local Apple Store), I took mine there. I did upgrades too, but I always keep my original RAM and HD in case I get a nitpicky tech. I stuffed those in there (with a fresh OS install) when I sent it for repair and had no issue. A friend of mine who has two of the same models but were not bricked yet - he had mixed experience at the Apple store. For his first one which was glitching badly, the Genius gave him a hard time because it was not glitching at the store (in spite of the repair order not indicating that the issue needed reproducing). They ended up fixing it, but not without causing stress to my friend. My friend then repaired the second one right before the repair order was ending but did not get a hard time from the Apple Store for that one. Because I had to choose between spending $500 on replacing a board (I already had replaced mine once under AppleCare - they basically just put a new version of the defective board in, and it started glitching in less than 3 mos) or spending a little more on a new laptop, I opted for the latter. And at that point, I was officially on the path off of OSX. I would have stuck around if Apple issued the repair order sooner (i.e., before my MBP bricked). Apple historically has had a great reputation for making people whole again. Given how much I spent on my 2011 MBP, I expected better, sooner.
      - engi_nerd 10y ago
        In retrospect, keeping the original components would have been a good idea. In those 4 years I moved 3 times and the original components were lost to the ether somewhere in there. Still, they should have honored what they promised in their manual. The fact that I even had to break out the manual (via PDF) is an annoyance. The representative's failure to honor that language, even as they readily admitted that yes, that was an official Apple manual, and the manual says I should be covered...but we're not going to cover this repair because we're not going to cover this repair...that was where I lost patience. I left the store and vowed to never buy another Apple product.
  - valine 10y ago
    I had my 2011 MacBook Pro graphics fail earlier this month, which apple kindly fixed. Just today apple announced they consider the 2011 MacBook Pro obsolete and will no longer provide hardware support. I imagine anyone who hasn't been lucky enough for their graphics to fail will soon have nothing but a giant aluminum paperweight.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      In a way, you're lucky because of timing. There was a gap of several months where 2011 MBP owners' AppleCare had expired before the Repair Order was issued - and people like me whose machines had failed were faced with a hard choice - pay >$500 for a fix or buy a new laptop. Prior to the repair order, the logic board replacements had the same GPU defect. I had my logic board replaced once already under AppleCare, and it got GPU glitches within 3 months of the repair. There was no point in replacing it again and again only to get the same problem over again. The GPU problem is genuinely fixed with the post-Repair Order boards though. I imagine the situation was even worse for people who did not buy AppleCare.
acveilleux 10y ago
Last generation of iBook G3 went through graphics chipsets at an astounding rate. Most of my friends who bought one got all the way through the 3 strikes and you get a replacement machine with them. All of them got a free iBook G4 for their trouble. At one point, the iBook G3 had a 73% failure rate...
amyjess 10y ago
There have been quite a few, actually, especially during the '90s. Low End Mac has a nice list: http://lowendmac.com/2007/the-10-worst-macs-ever/ http://lowendmac.com/2007/the-10-worst-macs-ever/ The first item on the list contains this gem: > Anyhow, Apple put a 32-bit CPU on a 16-bit bus and created a monstrosity that worked okay as long as you didn’t use the modem or a network connection. And the PowerBook 5300 was on the honorable mentions list. I remember that machine: it was notorious for the batteries catching on fire. And I've got personal experience with one of the machines on the honorable mention list, the Performa 630: the IDE hard drive was the bane of my existence back then, and the use of the execrable 68LC040 meant I was locked out of using certain software. Oh, and here's another, much longer, list, from the same website: http://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/ http://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/
- mikeash 10y ago
  Yeah, there were some pretty bad ones in 90s. If they were not as contentious, it's only because people's expectations for Apple were far lower back then. Consider, for example, the original Power Mac G4 release. There were three levels available: 400MHz, 450MHz, and 500MHz. Turns out Apple had overreached with the 500MHz speed, so they had to roll it back to 350/400/450. Quite an embarrassment at a time when Apple was struggling to convince people that their PowerPC chips outperformed Intel and were therefore worth a bunch of extra money. The new MacBook Pro is a pretty decent machine. It has some typical first-generation hardware problems, and the design certainly doesn't make everybody happy, but it's not bad. And Apple has released outright bad machines in the past.
  - ardaozkal 10y ago
    Yes, but those were times where computer design was still being experimented on a lot. Apple has much more knowledge and resources now, Their products having issues like these, in 2016, is pretty unacceptable.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      That's what I'm getting at when I say that expectations used to be much lower.
ksk 10y ago
Well Apple has had design defects in almost all of their products. (Most manufacturers do. If you know anyone who works at a repair shop, ask 'em) The annoying part is Apple silently ignores defects for a while till it becomes unpopular not to. But yeah, Apple has had design defects in several Laptop cycles. over heating issues, hinge breakage, the infamous swollen battery, retina coating issues, etc etc.
gurkendoktor 10y ago
The first generation of Intel MacBooks was terrible. The plastic broke all the time while also turning yellow, and many CPUs could be overheated (instant shutdown) just by running `yes` on two cores.

dogma1138 10y ago

GPU issues plagued some previous models also but not this early, usually after 1-2 years due to less than optimal thermal design, but Apple usually had an extended warranty program for those. I don't remember a release with so many weird issues, that honestly should've been picked up pretty early during the design and acceptance phases.

slantyyz 10y ago
Yeah, the GPU issues - but like you said they didn't manifest themselves right away. I got hit by the 2011 MBP issue a year or so in. I had to buy a new laptop because Apple didn't issue the repair order until well after my AppleCare expired and I wasn't going to pay $500+ for the repair not knowing whether Apple would eventually pick up the tab.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  TBH not any less excusable since laptops should be tested in a thermal chamber and for a long duration, but PR wise it wasn't this bad. And what's worse it just hints a deeper issues, the 6/6plus bendgate and the more recent display gate were kinda meh, now this line which not only had some questionable design choices but also has multiple hardware issues. Things just seem to be broken.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    Usually the predictable venom comes from Apple haters, but with this particular release, a lot of the venom has actually come from Apple lovers, which is what makes this particular release so noteworthy in my opinion.
    - hyperbovine 10y ago
      Hypothesis: 4-5 years ago a lot of people bought the rMBP, which continues to be, in my opinion, the greatest laptop ever made. We were looking forward to upgrading to something even more spectacular in a year or two. Instead, Apple gave us a gimmicky touch bar, beta quality USB-C ports, no MagSafe, and no indication that they see any of this as anything but swell. People are disappointed.
    - gurkendoktor 10y ago
      Because the MBP matters so much to techies. Technically, the 12" MacBook was worse than the MBP refresh in every way: Only one USB-C port, extremely underpowered, flimsy keyboard. Commenters everywhere ridiculed it, but it was obviously an "optional" product. So what, Apple often releases things that are too far ahead of the curve for most people. (Voice-controlled iPod shuffle, anyone?) But by calling it the new MacBook Pro, they've pretty much guaranteed that none of its laptops will ever be thicker again, or come with "older" ports, or with a traditional keyboard. They've put upper limits on all its laptops now. It's not that I am disinterested in the 2016 release. I also can't imagine how the 2017-2019 releases could possibly appeal to me, unless they surprise us with a MacBook Pro SE. This is not like the disappointing 2014 Mac mini, which Apple can fix overnight just by updating the parts. knocks on wood...
- engi_nerd 10y ago
  It took 4 years for the GPU in my 2011 MBP to die. Apple still covers GPU repairs on those models (or at least they did in 2015). They refused service on my laptop because I had upgraded the hard drive (to an SSD) and RAM (upgraded to 16 Gigs). I pointed out that the user's manual for the 2011 Macbook Pro specifically says that upgrading these components does not void the warranty for the entire machine, just that Apple will not cover your new HD and RAM (rightfully so). Apple customer support refused to live up to the text of their manual, even when I read directly from it and requested that they repair the faulty GPU because I had remained within the terms of the manual. They lost my business.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    I was in a very similar boat to you. Mine died right (weeks) after my AppleCare ended. Because a local authorized Apple dealer would fix it without an appointment (vs the local Apple Store), I took mine there. I did upgrades too, but I always keep my original RAM and HD in case I get a nitpicky tech. I stuffed those in there (with a fresh OS install) when I sent it for repair and had no issue. A friend of mine who has two of the same models but were not bricked yet - he had mixed experience at the Apple store. For his first one which was glitching badly, the Genius gave him a hard time because it was not glitching at the store (in spite of the repair order not indicating that the issue needed reproducing). They ended up fixing it, but not without causing stress to my friend. My friend then repaired the second one right before the repair order was ending but did not get a hard time from the Apple Store for that one. Because I had to choose between spending $500 on replacing a board (I already had replaced mine once under AppleCare - they basically just put a new version of the defective board in, and it started glitching in less than 3 mos) or spending a little more on a new laptop, I opted for the latter. And at that point, I was officially on the path off of OSX. I would have stuck around if Apple issued the repair order sooner (i.e., before my MBP bricked). Apple historically has had a great reputation for making people whole again. Given how much I spent on my 2011 MBP, I expected better, sooner.
    - engi_nerd 10y ago
      In retrospect, keeping the original components would have been a good idea. In those 4 years I moved 3 times and the original components were lost to the ether somewhere in there. Still, they should have honored what they promised in their manual. The fact that I even had to break out the manual (via PDF) is an annoyance. The representative's failure to honor that language, even as they readily admitted that yes, that was an official Apple manual, and the manual says I should be covered...but we're not going to cover this repair because we're not going to cover this repair...that was where I lost patience. I left the store and vowed to never buy another Apple product.
- valine 10y ago
  I had my 2011 MacBook Pro graphics fail earlier this month, which apple kindly fixed. Just today apple announced they consider the 2011 MacBook Pro obsolete and will no longer provide hardware support. I imagine anyone who hasn't been lucky enough for their graphics to fail will soon have nothing but a giant aluminum paperweight.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    In a way, you're lucky because of timing. There was a gap of several months where 2011 MBP owners' AppleCare had expired before the Repair Order was issued - and people like me whose machines had failed were faced with a hard choice - pay >$500 for a fix or buy a new laptop. Prior to the repair order, the logic board replacements had the same GPU defect. I had my logic board replaced once already under AppleCare, and it got GPU glitches within 3 months of the repair. There was no point in replacing it again and again only to get the same problem over again. The GPU problem is genuinely fixed with the post-Repair Order boards though. I imagine the situation was even worse for people who did not buy AppleCare.

acveilleux 10y ago

Last generation of iBook G3 went through graphics chipsets at an astounding rate. Most of my friends who bought one got all the way through the 3 strikes and you get a replacement machine with them. All of them got a free iBook G4 for their trouble. At one point, the iBook G3 had a 73% failure rate...

amyjess 10y ago

There have been quite a few, actually, especially during the '90s. Low End Mac has a nice list: http://lowendmac.com/2007/the-10-worst-macs-ever/ http://lowendmac.com/2007/the-10-worst-macs-ever/ The first item on the list contains this gem: > Anyhow, Apple put a 32-bit CPU on a 16-bit bus and created a monstrosity that worked okay as long as you didn’t use the modem or a network connection. And the PowerBook 5300 was on the honorable mentions list. I remember that machine: it was notorious for the batteries catching on fire. And I've got personal experience with one of the machines on the honorable mention list, the Performa 630: the IDE hard drive was the bane of my existence back then, and the use of the execrable 68LC040 meant I was locked out of using certain software. Oh, and here's another, much longer, list, from the same website: http://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/ http://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/

mikeash 10y ago
Yeah, there were some pretty bad ones in 90s. If they were not as contentious, it's only because people's expectations for Apple were far lower back then. Consider, for example, the original Power Mac G4 release. There were three levels available: 400MHz, 450MHz, and 500MHz. Turns out Apple had overreached with the 500MHz speed, so they had to roll it back to 350/400/450. Quite an embarrassment at a time when Apple was struggling to convince people that their PowerPC chips outperformed Intel and were therefore worth a bunch of extra money. The new MacBook Pro is a pretty decent machine. It has some typical first-generation hardware problems, and the design certainly doesn't make everybody happy, but it's not bad. And Apple has released outright bad machines in the past.
- ardaozkal 10y ago
  Yes, but those were times where computer design was still being experimented on a lot. Apple has much more knowledge and resources now, Their products having issues like these, in 2016, is pretty unacceptable.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    That's what I'm getting at when I say that expectations used to be much lower.

ksk 10y ago

Well Apple has had design defects in almost all of their products. (Most manufacturers do. If you know anyone who works at a repair shop, ask 'em) The annoying part is Apple silently ignores defects for a while till it becomes unpopular not to. But yeah, Apple has had design defects in several Laptop cycles. over heating issues, hinge breakage, the infamous swollen battery, retina coating issues, etc etc.

gurkendoktor 10y ago

The first generation of Intel MacBooks was terrible. The plastic broke all the time while also turning yellow, and many CPUs could be overheated (instant shutdown) just by running `yes` on two cores.