8 ms·

Disseminating the New Kilogram: An International ‘Dry Run’

70 points by amexrap 10y ago

source99 10y ago
It's worth watching the video just for the sound effects.
- ars 10y ago
  Don't watch the video on mobile if you are bandwidth limited. It's 628MB for a 2 minute video.
  - anonova 10y ago
    Not quite sure how you got that number, but here are the real file sizes: 77 MiB (1080p), 49 MiB (720p), and 18 MiB (360p).
    - ars 10y ago
      I did: youtube-dl 'https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/html5/html5lib/v2.47/mwEmbedFrame.php/p/684682/uiconf_id/31013851/entry_id/0_gaag5ixq?wid=_684682&iframeembed=true&entry_id=0_gaag5ixq' And that was the filesize I got.
      - flashman 10y ago
        Pass youtube-dl the -F parameter to see all the video formats available. In this case: [info] Available formats for 0_gaag5ixq: format code extension resolution note hls-meta mp4 multiple Quality selection URL mp4-467 mp4 640x360 467k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~9.29MiB hls-478 mp4 640x360 478k mp4-664 mp4 640x360 664k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~13.10MiB hls-679 mp4 640x360 679k mp4-904 mp4 640x360 904k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~18.00MiB hls-925 mp4 640x360 925k webm-1436 webm 1280x720 1436k , webm container, v_vp8, 29fps, ~28.50MiB mp4-1453 mp4 1280x720 1453k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~28.90MiB hls-1487 mp4 1280x720 1487k mp4-2455 mp4 1280x720 2455k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~48.80MiB mp4-3884 mp4 1920x1080 3884k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~77.20MiB mpeg-32358 mpeg 1920x1080 32358k , mpeg-ps container, mpeg video, 29fps, ~627.00MiB (best) So, you're both right.
- dexwiz 10y ago
  Wow the was... bad. I can get scientists want to bring SciFi to life, but this is a stretch. In the second Artemis Fowl book, there is a centaur who uses a human laptop (magical creatures live in a technologically advanced society underground), and the first thing he does is mute it. He complains that humans are unevolved and have some sort of compulsion to make their products emit sounds and and lights.
  - haneefmubarak 10y ago
    Foaly was the best!
- jamoes 10y ago
  At first I thought, "Oh, these sound effects are kinda cool, to give the video a flair for the dramatic." There's not going to be any noise inside of the vacuum, but the initial sound effects were probably the noises that the contraption would make if it had air to propagate the sound waves. But, as the video went on, the sounds effects just go more and more ridiculous. An alarm sound as the object is sent down a tube?! And the coup de grace was the lawn mower sound effect at the very end as the object was wheeled away.
jelder 10y ago
Why does the video have goofy sound effects?
- mimsee 10y ago
  It says under the video "All sound effects added; the actual process is extremely quiet."
- photogrammetry 10y ago
  At 2:04 I'm pretty sure I hear the sound of a Chrysler sliding door autolock.
jgable 10y ago
Has anyone here worked in a laboratory or other environment that uses these reference masses and requires this level of precision?
- mdturnerphys 10y ago
  Not directly, but my research group has used referenced masses and a former colleague works on the NIST watt balance.
- fuzzfactor 10y ago
  In commodity analysis, I depend on the mere existence and cascading chain of trust descending from this exact NIST kilogram, or any other NIST mass standard that may come along. This is a tremendous benefit even if I am not required to make my mass measurements anywhere near the level of precision which NIST is capable of itself discerning. My target for precision is simply to be measurably better than the next best operator. NIST gives a final reference against which the quality of measurement can be correctly judged. I have personally certified many billions of dollars worth of cargo in a way which is traceable to the NIST mass standard in particular, more so than most other single-handed individuals by far. Naturally, I started early which was an unfair advantage, but I recognized the need for traceability to a primary unquestionable standard, especially when I'm advancing the underlying measurement technologies in ways which are not being published or would be difficult for less experienced operators to grasp. From an extreme viewpoint, the only alternative would be to otherwise rely on superstition. Turns out, without knowing it, I have spent years focused on avoiding the kind of difficulties that Theranos appears to be involed in, with their emerging testing technology in their field of analysis. I prefer my results to be traceable to NIST before they emerge from the lab. Insurance companies have always gotten a lot more upset over a slightly incorrect result in my field compared to the field of routine blood work.
dsjoerg 10y ago
it's embarrassing that we use such a fragile process to establish a standard that is supposed to be used everywhere.
- jasonmp85 10y ago
  I'm not actually sure what you're insinuating here. Previously the standard WAS the "international prototype kilogram", all of which have drifted since creation (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Stability_of_the_international_prototype_kilogram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Stability_of_the_inte... ) The problem with this is it isn't even fragile, it's _not reproducible_. The worst part is that other SI units depend on the kilogram, so they all change as this drift occurs! After a certain amount of time, how will we know what a "real" kilogram is? See here for discussion of this SI problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Dependency_of_the_SI_on_the_IPK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Dependency_of_the_SI_... The point of the watt balance approach is to make it possible for a lab to reproduce the kilogram without another kilogram reference. That's what this is about, and I don't really think it's embarrassing. I think it's very, very hard.
  - moon_of_moon 10y ago
    Why do we need these rare metals? Why not just use a block of ice generated from a known quantity of water, for example?
    - Zaak 10y ago
      The prototype kilogram was made of platinum-iridium because they are very nonreactive and fairly hard, so once the prototype was made it would be unlikely to be accidentally modified. If you tried to use water ice as a standard, you'd find that its mass was changing all the time as the ice sublimated away, or humidity condensed onto its surface. It would be impossible to make precise measurements.
    - wolfgang42 10y ago
      I'm not sure why ice would matter given that it should weigh the same as in the liquid form, but... How do you measure a known quantity of water to within a few tens of parts per billion? Do you specify the proportion of light to heavy water? (For 'normal' water about 1 in 41 million.) What about contaminants in the water? There are so many uncertainties that it's impossible for all practical purposes. The whole point of using 'rare' silicon is that we already have commercial processes for producing ultrapure, defectless, monocrystals of the stuff (for use in computer chips), so it's easy to reuse that technology for defining a kilogram.
semi-extrinsic 10y ago
Fun fact: while mainly dealing with insane precision machines, NIST have also designed a LEGO watt balance that you can use to determine mass based on the new SI standard in the comfort of your own home: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/ajp/83/11/10.1119/1.4929898 http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/ajp/83/11/10.1... (Open Access)
- Animats 10y ago
  That's very neat. It relies on the accuracy of the electrical current measurements, though; it's not an absolute measurement from fundamental physics. For that, NIST has a fundamental standard for the standard volt.[1] So the fundamental standards now are time (atomic clock), the speed of light in vacuum, and the standard volt. The meter is now defined in terms of the speed of light in vacuum and a time. [1] https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2013/04/primary-voltage-standard-whole-world https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2013/04/primary-voltag...
acqq 10y ago
More about the whole process: http://www.nature.com/news/kilogram-conflict-resolved-at-last-1.18550 http://www.nature.com/news/kilogram-conflict-resolved-at-las... Kilogram conflict resolved at last (2015)

70 points by amexrap 10y ago

source99 10y ago

It's worth watching the video just for the sound effects.

ars 10y ago
Don't watch the video on mobile if you are bandwidth limited. It's 628MB for a 2 minute video.
- anonova 10y ago
  Not quite sure how you got that number, but here are the real file sizes: 77 MiB (1080p), 49 MiB (720p), and 18 MiB (360p).
  - ars 10y ago
    I did: youtube-dl 'https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/html5/html5lib/v2.47/mwEmbedFrame.php/p/684682/uiconf_id/31013851/entry_id/0_gaag5ixq?wid=_684682&iframeembed=true&entry_id=0_gaag5ixq' And that was the filesize I got.
    - flashman 10y ago
      Pass youtube-dl the -F parameter to see all the video formats available. In this case: [info] Available formats for 0_gaag5ixq: format code extension resolution note hls-meta mp4 multiple Quality selection URL mp4-467 mp4 640x360 467k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~9.29MiB hls-478 mp4 640x360 478k mp4-664 mp4 640x360 664k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~13.10MiB hls-679 mp4 640x360 679k mp4-904 mp4 640x360 904k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~18.00MiB hls-925 mp4 640x360 925k webm-1436 webm 1280x720 1436k , webm container, v_vp8, 29fps, ~28.50MiB mp4-1453 mp4 1280x720 1453k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~28.90MiB hls-1487 mp4 1280x720 1487k mp4-2455 mp4 1280x720 2455k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~48.80MiB mp4-3884 mp4 1920x1080 3884k , isom container, avc1, 29fps, ~77.20MiB mpeg-32358 mpeg 1920x1080 32358k , mpeg-ps container, mpeg video, 29fps, ~627.00MiB (best) So, you're both right.
dexwiz 10y ago
Wow the was... bad. I can get scientists want to bring SciFi to life, but this is a stretch. In the second Artemis Fowl book, there is a centaur who uses a human laptop (magical creatures live in a technologically advanced society underground), and the first thing he does is mute it. He complains that humans are unevolved and have some sort of compulsion to make their products emit sounds and and lights.
- haneefmubarak 10y ago
  Foaly was the best!
jamoes 10y ago
At first I thought, "Oh, these sound effects are kinda cool, to give the video a flair for the dramatic." There's not going to be any noise inside of the vacuum, but the initial sound effects were probably the noises that the contraption would make if it had air to propagate the sound waves. But, as the video went on, the sounds effects just go more and more ridiculous. An alarm sound as the object is sent down a tube?! And the coup de grace was the lawn mower sound effect at the very end as the object was wheeled away.

jelder 10y ago

Why does the video have goofy sound effects?

mimsee 10y ago
It says under the video "All sound effects added; the actual process is extremely quiet."
photogrammetry 10y ago
At 2:04 I'm pretty sure I hear the sound of a Chrysler sliding door autolock.

jgable 10y ago

Has anyone here worked in a laboratory or other environment that uses these reference masses and requires this level of precision?

mdturnerphys 10y ago
Not directly, but my research group has used referenced masses and a former colleague works on the NIST watt balance.
fuzzfactor 10y ago
In commodity analysis, I depend on the mere existence and cascading chain of trust descending from this exact NIST kilogram, or any other NIST mass standard that may come along. This is a tremendous benefit even if I am not required to make my mass measurements anywhere near the level of precision which NIST is capable of itself discerning. My target for precision is simply to be measurably better than the next best operator. NIST gives a final reference against which the quality of measurement can be correctly judged. I have personally certified many billions of dollars worth of cargo in a way which is traceable to the NIST mass standard in particular, more so than most other single-handed individuals by far. Naturally, I started early which was an unfair advantage, but I recognized the need for traceability to a primary unquestionable standard, especially when I'm advancing the underlying measurement technologies in ways which are not being published or would be difficult for less experienced operators to grasp. From an extreme viewpoint, the only alternative would be to otherwise rely on superstition. Turns out, without knowing it, I have spent years focused on avoiding the kind of difficulties that Theranos appears to be involed in, with their emerging testing technology in their field of analysis. I prefer my results to be traceable to NIST before they emerge from the lab. Insurance companies have always gotten a lot more upset over a slightly incorrect result in my field compared to the field of routine blood work.

dsjoerg 10y ago

it's embarrassing that we use such a fragile process to establish a standard that is supposed to be used everywhere.

jasonmp85 10y ago
I'm not actually sure what you're insinuating here. Previously the standard WAS the "international prototype kilogram", all of which have drifted since creation (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Stability_of_the_international_prototype_kilogram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Stability_of_the_inte... ) The problem with this is it isn't even fragile, it's _not reproducible_. The worst part is that other SI units depend on the kilogram, so they all change as this drift occurs! After a certain amount of time, how will we know what a "real" kilogram is? See here for discussion of this SI problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Dependency_of_the_SI_on_the_IPK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Dependency_of_the_SI_... The point of the watt balance approach is to make it possible for a lab to reproduce the kilogram without another kilogram reference. That's what this is about, and I don't really think it's embarrassing. I think it's very, very hard.
- moon_of_moon 10y ago
  Why do we need these rare metals? Why not just use a block of ice generated from a known quantity of water, for example?
  - Zaak 10y ago
    The prototype kilogram was made of platinum-iridium because they are very nonreactive and fairly hard, so once the prototype was made it would be unlikely to be accidentally modified. If you tried to use water ice as a standard, you'd find that its mass was changing all the time as the ice sublimated away, or humidity condensed onto its surface. It would be impossible to make precise measurements.
  - wolfgang42 10y ago
    I'm not sure why ice would matter given that it should weigh the same as in the liquid form, but... How do you measure a known quantity of water to within a few tens of parts per billion? Do you specify the proportion of light to heavy water? (For 'normal' water about 1 in 41 million.) What about contaminants in the water? There are so many uncertainties that it's impossible for all practical purposes. The whole point of using 'rare' silicon is that we already have commercial processes for producing ultrapure, defectless, monocrystals of the stuff (for use in computer chips), so it's easy to reuse that technology for defining a kilogram.

semi-extrinsic 10y ago

Fun fact: while mainly dealing with insane precision machines, NIST have also designed a LEGO watt balance that you can use to determine mass based on the new SI standard in the comfort of your own home: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/ajp/83/11/10.1119/1.4929898 http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/ajp/83/11/10.1... (Open Access)

Animats 10y ago
That's very neat. It relies on the accuracy of the electrical current measurements, though; it's not an absolute measurement from fundamental physics. For that, NIST has a fundamental standard for the standard volt.[1] So the fundamental standards now are time (atomic clock), the speed of light in vacuum, and the standard volt. The meter is now defined in terms of the speed of light in vacuum and a time. [1] https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2013/04/primary-voltage-standard-whole-world https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2013/04/primary-voltag...

acqq 10y ago

More about the whole process: http://www.nature.com/news/kilogram-conflict-resolved-at-last-1.18550 http://www.nature.com/news/kilogram-conflict-resolved-at-las... Kilogram conflict resolved at last (2015)