4 ms·

> can read keystrokes, read mouse events, and make screen grabs of any other applic As compared to Windows in which an app can't do that? > The operating sys

by devoply 10y ago

> can read keystrokes, read mouse events, and make screen grabs of any other applic As compared to Windows in which an app can't do that? > The operating system where no apps are sandboxed by default? As compared to Windows or Mac where apps are sandboxed by default? > The operating system where once you find a local root exploit, which are not rare, you can embed a root kit deep in the operating system? As a desktop user, not sure how this applies. Windows has rootkits as does Mac. However, every time I boot my computer my computer doesn't call home. I am also not worried about government agencies having unfettered access to my machine as a default setting. With Windows I don't know that. When I install Mac I give them my e-mail address and thereby my identity just to install the operating system. They also have my credit card number. When a Mac calls home they have my IP. So anything I do online can be traced by to my identity as a default setting through Apple... a company not located in my country. As I said a semblance of security and privacy. Better than no semblance which at this point is the case with Windows and Mac. I know it's not real security, but best that no money can buy at this time. I also have Windows. It's for playing old games... Surprising they still work after 15 years.

CJefferson 10y ago
> As compared to Windows in which an app can't do that (read keystrokes of other apps) Yes, Apps can't do that. > As compared to Windows or Mac where apps are sandboxed by default? Yes, apps from both the windows and mac App Stores are sandboxed. I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying Windows is perfect at all, but the GUI security is better. If nothing else, consider the classic ctrl+alt+delete, which no app can catch. On Linux there is no way to be sure the 'login' you are seeing isn't a program someone has installed to capture logins. On Windows I know the login is genuine if I press ctrl+alt+delete.
- tokenizerrr 10y ago
  > Yes, Apps can't do that. I have AutoHotKey and ShareX. The first reads keystrokes from anywhere, and the second takes screenshots from anywhere and anything. It's pretty clear that Windows applications most definitely can do that.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    The parent comment is (slightly obtusely) talking about "UWP Apps", which are installed from the store and have mobile-style "sandboxing". Normal Win32 applications can of course use SetWindowsHookEx() and the DirectDraw screen functions to take over your screen.
    - josteink 10y ago
      > The parent comment is (slightly obtusely) talking about "UWP Apps", which are installed from the store and have mobile-style "sandboxing". And if he is, that's an absolutely academical points as 99% of all Windows-users runs zero applications from the store. Nothing like an imaginary straw-man argument on the internet, eh? :)
      - raptorfactor 10y ago
        It's cute that you're accusing someone of an "imaginary straw-man" as you then proceed to pull crap like "99% of all Windows-users do [...]" out of your ass. Source? Or is it okay for you to make stuff up as long as nobody else does? ;)
danieldk 10y ago
As compared to Windows in which an app can't do that? Windows provides UI isolation between privilege levels: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb625963.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb625963.aspx As compared to Windows or Mac where apps are sandboxed by default? As the sibling commenter mentions. Mac App Store applications are required to be sandboxed: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Security/Conceptual/AppSandboxDesignGuide/AboutAppSandbox/AboutAppSandbox.html https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Se... The same applies for Windows Store apps. Windows has rootkits as does Mac. Mac has system integrity protection (SIP). Even as root, you cannot replace system files (unless you disable SIP): https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204899 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204899 So, in contrast to default Linux distributions, a root kit cannot replace system files (a common trick that root kits apply is to replace system files to preserve itself during reboots and to hide the root kit, e.g. by hiding it from 'ps' output). Moreover, macOS only loads signed kernel extensions, so it is not possible for a root kit to inject itself as a loadable kernel module. I think the same is true for Windows, but I am not familiar enough with Windows. I am also not worried about government agencies having unfettered access to my machine as a default setting. You are throwing two things one one heap now: (1) having a backdoor and (2) sending out usage data. If you believe that there is a difference between Linux, macOS, or Windows when it comes to (1), this is utterly naive. Linux distributions have a large number of package maintainers and upstream projects. You cannot be certain that none of these ten thousands of people is compromised and inserts a subtle backdoor. And even if you are certain about this, it's likely that government actors have a collection of exploitable remote and local exploits. When it comes to sending out data, such as usage data, use an app firewall. E.g. with a program like Little Snitch, it is easy to configure which program can contact what server in the outside world. Ps. Linux has the potential to be very secure. A lot of the technology is there (e.g. Wayland and SELinux). The problem is that the Linux community is too conservative and/or believes in the myth that Linux is already secure.
- Accacin 10y ago
  Sorry, but how many people actually use the Mac and Windows app stores?
kalleboo 10y ago
> As I said a semblance of security and privacy Unless you happened to install Ubuntu, which used to send all your local file searches to the cloud to find Amazon deals
- chris_wot 10y ago
  And does not any more?
  - devoply 10y ago
    no.
- devoply 10y ago
  True. Though we knew about it immediately and could apt-get remove that stuff quite easily too.

by devoply 10y ago

CJefferson 10y ago

> As compared to Windows in which an app can't do that (read keystrokes of other apps) Yes, Apps can't do that. > As compared to Windows or Mac where apps are sandboxed by default? Yes, apps from both the windows and mac App Stores are sandboxed. I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying Windows is perfect at all, but the GUI security is better. If nothing else, consider the classic ctrl+alt+delete, which no app can catch. On Linux there is no way to be sure the 'login' you are seeing isn't a program someone has installed to capture logins. On Windows I know the login is genuine if I press ctrl+alt+delete.

tokenizerrr 10y ago
> Yes, Apps can't do that. I have AutoHotKey and ShareX. The first reads keystrokes from anywhere, and the second takes screenshots from anywhere and anything. It's pretty clear that Windows applications most definitely can do that.
- pjc50 10y ago
  The parent comment is (slightly obtusely) talking about "UWP Apps", which are installed from the store and have mobile-style "sandboxing". Normal Win32 applications can of course use SetWindowsHookEx() and the DirectDraw screen functions to take over your screen.
  - josteink 10y ago
    > The parent comment is (slightly obtusely) talking about "UWP Apps", which are installed from the store and have mobile-style "sandboxing". And if he is, that's an absolutely academical points as 99% of all Windows-users runs zero applications from the store. Nothing like an imaginary straw-man argument on the internet, eh? :)
    - raptorfactor 10y ago
      It's cute that you're accusing someone of an "imaginary straw-man" as you then proceed to pull crap like "99% of all Windows-users do [...]" out of your ass. Source? Or is it okay for you to make stuff up as long as nobody else does? ;)

danieldk 10y ago

As compared to Windows in which an app can't do that? Windows provides UI isolation between privilege levels: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb625963.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb625963.aspx As compared to Windows or Mac where apps are sandboxed by default? As the sibling commenter mentions. Mac App Store applications are required to be sandboxed: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Security/Conceptual/AppSandboxDesignGuide/AboutAppSandbox/AboutAppSandbox.html https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Se... The same applies for Windows Store apps. Windows has rootkits as does Mac. Mac has system integrity protection (SIP). Even as root, you cannot replace system files (unless you disable SIP): https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204899 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204899 So, in contrast to default Linux distributions, a root kit cannot replace system files (a common trick that root kits apply is to replace system files to preserve itself during reboots and to hide the root kit, e.g. by hiding it from 'ps' output). Moreover, macOS only loads signed kernel extensions, so it is not possible for a root kit to inject itself as a loadable kernel module. I think the same is true for Windows, but I am not familiar enough with Windows. I am also not worried about government agencies having unfettered access to my machine as a default setting. You are throwing two things one one heap now: (1) having a backdoor and (2) sending out usage data. If you believe that there is a difference between Linux, macOS, or Windows when it comes to (1), this is utterly naive. Linux distributions have a large number of package maintainers and upstream projects. You cannot be certain that none of these ten thousands of people is compromised and inserts a subtle backdoor. And even if you are certain about this, it's likely that government actors have a collection of exploitable remote and local exploits. When it comes to sending out data, such as usage data, use an app firewall. E.g. with a program like Little Snitch, it is easy to configure which program can contact what server in the outside world. Ps. Linux has the potential to be very secure. A lot of the technology is there (e.g. Wayland and SELinux). The problem is that the Linux community is too conservative and/or believes in the myth that Linux is already secure.

Accacin 10y ago
Sorry, but how many people actually use the Mac and Windows app stores?

kalleboo 10y ago

> As I said a semblance of security and privacy Unless you happened to install Ubuntu, which used to send all your local file searches to the cloud to find Amazon deals

chris_wot 10y ago
And does not any more?
- devoply 10y ago
  no.
devoply 10y ago
True. Though we knew about it immediately and could apt-get remove that stuff quite easily too.