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How does a neo-Nazi end up with more karma than me on Hacker news? You should be banned from here. Seriously. Advocating that Jews be "excluded if not eliminat

How does a neo-Nazi end up with more karma than me on Hacker news? You should be banned from here. Seriously. Advocating that Jews be "excluded if not eliminated from society" is hate speech. It greatly disappoints me that the HN moderators apparently think it's okay to leave virulent anti-semitism unchecked. I am Jewish. I have never been to Israel. America is my home. Why do you want to tear that away from me?

grzm 10y ago
Your question was most likely rhetorical, but here goes: hga has had a lot of non-political comments on the site as well, and been on the site over twice as long as you have. That's a lot of time to gather karma. They've been recently called out by the HN mods: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994342
- morgante 10y ago
  Yea, my question was more rhetorical. For the record, I think it is a problem that someone can consistently drop hateful political rhetoric (I looked through hga's history) essentially without repercussions. It looks like he has some perfectly fine technical contributions, but that shouldn't be an excuse to regularly derail threads with hateful commentary. Any new account which displayed hga's history of political commentary would be summarily banned. I'm skeptical that HN should allow such commentary to continue just because it comes from the same account that has technically good content.
  - grzm 10y ago
    I was purely providing a speculative explanation, not a justification. Nor do I think some calculus balancing good posts versus bad posts is being done by the mods. If you read me as implying either, that wasn't in any way my intent nor my position.
    - morgante 10y ago
      Sorry, I didn't think you were arguing that at all. I'm mostly just venting about the level of hate which so many humans are seemingly capable of (and how few resources the rest of us have to combat it).
      - hga 10y ago
        and how few resources the rest of us have to combat it Review my recent threads in the last 24+ and see exactly how many people publicly support vs. oppose me. There seem to be a sufficiency of the latter, which makes sense ... ah, let me introduce another concept: identity > culture > politics. The Left "owns" most if not all of the existing identity groups, and the gravamen about this election seems to be that whites are finally starting to decide that they too must become an identity group, that they can't afford to not play this game when everyone else is, and to our disadvantage. You may find this deplorable, as I do in many ways, but I hope you don't contend that whites are uniquely not allowed to play the same game every other group is playing. The Left owns the culture, and therefore the politics that are downstream of it, e.g. they've been allowed to define the Overton Window and otherwise the rules of the game. A large fraction of Trump's appeal is that he refuses to play most of the game by the Left's rules, and one of the things that really launched him was his very direct attacks on political correctness, the single most powerful tool in the American Left's armory aside from lawfare and outright violence, the latter of which which we've learned was explicitly a tool in Hillary's campaign and that we can now see being played out in the streets of America. And we can be sure lawfare will be employed in due course.... And, seriously, that I legitimately trigger you does not mean that I hate you, or even dislike you (too many both of Jewish friends and enemies over the years to do that to the group as a whole), although I can certainly see why you'd come to that conclusion. On the other hand, perhaps look into yourself. Do you hold those in flyover country in disdain? Do you disprove of "Journalist Marisa Fox-Bevilacqua, writing for Israel’s left-wing Ha’aretz daily, call[ing] Ivanka Trump a 'leggy glamazon, a ‘shiksa goddess’ trophy wife for the shy son of a disgraced macher'" (that's from http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2016/11/27/ivanka-trump-haaretz-marisa-fox-bevilacqua-shiksa-goddess/ http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2016/11/27/ivanka-trump-h... since I don't have a subscription to Ha’aretz, nor would I ever dream of paying for one to that rag). The ADL's incorrect smearing of Steve Bannon and Breitbart.com? Even if you don't participate, this is most certainly a two-way street....
dang 10y ago
> It greatly disappoints me that the HN moderators apparently think it's okay to leave virulent anti-semitism unchecked. We don't come close to seeing all the comments here, so that's not a valid conclusion to draw. The likeliest explanation in such cases is that we haven't seen the post yet.
- eropple 10y ago
  I 100% know you are working in good faith and I thank you for what you do--the profusion of straight-up white supremacy (notable over the usual stew of MRA nonsense and generally reprehensible race politics) over the last few months has started to make me wonder if this phenomenon on HN is important enough to y'all for you to be paying it the attention it deserves in order to effectively combat it. I started using my favorite-comments list as a hall of shame, and mostly gave up after, like, two days because there were way, way too many of them to actually pick up on 'cause it really is all over the place. I appreciate what you're saying in this subthread, but from below, the infection has to this point seemed to largely pass by the proprietorship. And it's some bad shit, so that's pretty worrying! Of course, I am a very biased observer, and I'm certainly not suggesting you take what I'm saying as Gospel but merely anecdotal experience...but I know I'm not the only one in this subtree who's getting this vibe, 'cause we've talked about it off-HN.
  - dang 10y ago
    I banned two accounts in this thread as soon as I saw what they had posted, so I think your impression is probably a mix of us interpreting some of these comments differently (though probably not the worst ones, such as here) and simply not seeing the same comments. When it comes to interpreting, we try (hard) to give users the benefit of the doubt. That does leaves room for comments that suck, but the alternatives that I'm aware of would suck worse. Two things that override the benefit of the doubt are (a) when someone is using HN primarily for politics or ideology, and (b) when we warn someone or ask them to use the site as intended and they still don't change. If you notice cases of that, or cases where we need to be warning someone and haven't yet, those are what we most appreciate having brought to our attention. I skimmed through both your 'favorite' comments and flagged comments lists and didn't see any clear cases of these.
hga 10y ago
You're just name-calling by labeling me a neo-Nazi, I'm pretty sure I've shown no such tendencies nor harbor any. That I assign the NASDP to the loathsome Left as they labeled themselves ought to be a clue there. Opposition if not hate of Nazis was also something inculcated in my generation (I turn 56 in a few days), especially during the Vietnam War, WWII was "the good war". This relocation position seems to be a general position of the "Alt Right", including the Alt West component, the neo-Nazis are by definition in the much smaller Alt White component. As explicitly noted by others and implicitly by me, this position holds true for all these separate identity groups, "diversity + proximity = war", and the Alt West's response is to remove the proximity from the equation. I suspect the the Alt White's is to remove the diversity, shall we say, but that would just be another sign of their detachment from reality. Me, I'm still making up my mind on whether Jews are such a separate group, but I can see where my research is heading, and therefore I don't disavow this position as of now. You do get to decide if this makes me an anti-Semite, although can you be one and be a staunch admirer and supporter of Israel, in every issue I can think of aside from Jonathan Pollard (which is based on my understanding that much of what he gathered would have only been of interest to the Soviet Union, which implies that the unit of Israeli intelligence he'd been working with was compromised by them, but I note now looking at his Wikipedia entry he spied or tried to for many other countries, which if true (this is Wikipedia), puts a rather different complexion on the whole mess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard#Espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard#Espionage)? Anyway, I will ask you about one thing that's come from my general researches: is there not something very special about the post-Babylonian Jews, in that they uniquely remain a large, cohesive group when e.g. the Samaritans, who had roughly many of the same sorts of experiences, now total 777 as of January 1, 2015 according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Modern_times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Modern_times That alone suggests you are a different identity group from "whites", and thus fall under the "diversity + proximity = war" logic. And, yeah, America is your home. I believe it's my home too, but too many on the Left believe I'm "not America" as Hillary explicitly put it, and I don't think America's live and let live tradition applies any more, many groups including American Jews are simply not willing to leave us alone, so I'm searching for the least worst ways to address this. And I think forcing various native born American groups like yours to relocate (or vice versa) is, or at least has to be on the menu. So is a proposal to revert to the pre-1965 demographics of the US, which would leave your group alone. You certainly know from your people's history that there are much worse selections on the menu. TL;DR: I don't want to tear this away from you, but I think it might be the best of many bad options, and turning that around, what about the tearing away of America from my group? And calling for a ban from HN? That won't make the opinions of people like me go away, are you, for example, saying no one who belongs to the Alt Right should be allowed to contribute to Hacker News? Despite the fact that they work with, sell to, and so on to what I and many others on both sides see as an steadily increasing number of members of it? Would that truly be best for it? The Overton Bubble is clearly a real thing as we've seen from the reactions to his election and the all too many discussions of it and subthreads invoking it on HN, and I don't believe I'm operating out of "hate", or preaching it (well, in this domain, I fully admit to hating gun-grabbers, have expressed that in no uncertain terms on HN before, and been called on it, and have done my best to moderate my expression of it on the issue since then).

grzm 10y ago

Your question was most likely rhetorical, but here goes: hga has had a lot of non-political comments on the site as well, and been on the site over twice as long as you have. That's a lot of time to gather karma. They've been recently called out by the HN mods: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12994342

morgante 10y ago
Yea, my question was more rhetorical. For the record, I think it is a problem that someone can consistently drop hateful political rhetoric (I looked through hga's history) essentially without repercussions. It looks like he has some perfectly fine technical contributions, but that shouldn't be an excuse to regularly derail threads with hateful commentary. Any new account which displayed hga's history of political commentary would be summarily banned. I'm skeptical that HN should allow such commentary to continue just because it comes from the same account that has technically good content.
- grzm 10y ago
  I was purely providing a speculative explanation, not a justification. Nor do I think some calculus balancing good posts versus bad posts is being done by the mods. If you read me as implying either, that wasn't in any way my intent nor my position.
  - morgante 10y ago
    Sorry, I didn't think you were arguing that at all. I'm mostly just venting about the level of hate which so many humans are seemingly capable of (and how few resources the rest of us have to combat it).
    - hga 10y ago
      and how few resources the rest of us have to combat it Review my recent threads in the last 24+ and see exactly how many people publicly support vs. oppose me. There seem to be a sufficiency of the latter, which makes sense ... ah, let me introduce another concept: identity > culture > politics. The Left "owns" most if not all of the existing identity groups, and the gravamen about this election seems to be that whites are finally starting to decide that they too must become an identity group, that they can't afford to not play this game when everyone else is, and to our disadvantage. You may find this deplorable, as I do in many ways, but I hope you don't contend that whites are uniquely not allowed to play the same game every other group is playing. The Left owns the culture, and therefore the politics that are downstream of it, e.g. they've been allowed to define the Overton Window and otherwise the rules of the game. A large fraction of Trump's appeal is that he refuses to play most of the game by the Left's rules, and one of the things that really launched him was his very direct attacks on political correctness, the single most powerful tool in the American Left's armory aside from lawfare and outright violence, the latter of which which we've learned was explicitly a tool in Hillary's campaign and that we can now see being played out in the streets of America. And we can be sure lawfare will be employed in due course.... And, seriously, that I legitimately trigger you does not mean that I hate you, or even dislike you (too many both of Jewish friends and enemies over the years to do that to the group as a whole), although I can certainly see why you'd come to that conclusion. On the other hand, perhaps look into yourself. Do you hold those in flyover country in disdain? Do you disprove of "Journalist Marisa Fox-Bevilacqua, writing for Israel’s left-wing Ha’aretz daily, call[ing] Ivanka Trump a 'leggy glamazon, a ‘shiksa goddess’ trophy wife for the shy son of a disgraced macher'" (that's from http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2016/11/27/ivanka-trump-haaretz-marisa-fox-bevilacqua-shiksa-goddess/ http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2016/11/27/ivanka-trump-h... since I don't have a subscription to Ha’aretz, nor would I ever dream of paying for one to that rag). The ADL's incorrect smearing of Steve Bannon and Breitbart.com? Even if you don't participate, this is most certainly a two-way street....

dang 10y ago

> It greatly disappoints me that the HN moderators apparently think it's okay to leave virulent anti-semitism unchecked. We don't come close to seeing all the comments here, so that's not a valid conclusion to draw. The likeliest explanation in such cases is that we haven't seen the post yet.

eropple 10y ago
I 100% know you are working in good faith and I thank you for what you do--the profusion of straight-up white supremacy (notable over the usual stew of MRA nonsense and generally reprehensible race politics) over the last few months has started to make me wonder if this phenomenon on HN is important enough to y'all for you to be paying it the attention it deserves in order to effectively combat it. I started using my favorite-comments list as a hall of shame, and mostly gave up after, like, two days because there were way, way too many of them to actually pick up on 'cause it really is all over the place. I appreciate what you're saying in this subthread, but from below, the infection has to this point seemed to largely pass by the proprietorship. And it's some bad shit, so that's pretty worrying! Of course, I am a very biased observer, and I'm certainly not suggesting you take what I'm saying as Gospel but merely anecdotal experience...but I know I'm not the only one in this subtree who's getting this vibe, 'cause we've talked about it off-HN.
- dang 10y ago
  I banned two accounts in this thread as soon as I saw what they had posted, so I think your impression is probably a mix of us interpreting some of these comments differently (though probably not the worst ones, such as here) and simply not seeing the same comments. When it comes to interpreting, we try (hard) to give users the benefit of the doubt. That does leaves room for comments that suck, but the alternatives that I'm aware of would suck worse. Two things that override the benefit of the doubt are (a) when someone is using HN primarily for politics or ideology, and (b) when we warn someone or ask them to use the site as intended and they still don't change. If you notice cases of that, or cases where we need to be warning someone and haven't yet, those are what we most appreciate having brought to our attention. I skimmed through both your 'favorite' comments and flagged comments lists and didn't see any clear cases of these.

hga 10y ago

You're just name-calling by labeling me a neo-Nazi, I'm pretty sure I've shown no such tendencies nor harbor any. That I assign the NASDP to the loathsome Left as they labeled themselves ought to be a clue there. Opposition if not hate of Nazis was also something inculcated in my generation (I turn 56 in a few days), especially during the Vietnam War, WWII was "the good war". This relocation position seems to be a general position of the "Alt Right", including the Alt West component, the neo-Nazis are by definition in the much smaller Alt White component. As explicitly noted by others and implicitly by me, this position holds true for all these separate identity groups, "diversity + proximity = war", and the Alt West's response is to remove the proximity from the equation. I suspect the the Alt White's is to remove the diversity, shall we say, but that would just be another sign of their detachment from reality. Me, I'm still making up my mind on whether Jews are such a separate group, but I can see where my research is heading, and therefore I don't disavow this position as of now. You do get to decide if this makes me an anti-Semite, although can you be one and be a staunch admirer and supporter of Israel, in every issue I can think of aside from Jonathan Pollard (which is based on my understanding that much of what he gathered would have only been of interest to the Soviet Union, which implies that the unit of Israeli intelligence he'd been working with was compromised by them, but I note now looking at his Wikipedia entry he spied or tried to for many other countries, which if true (this is Wikipedia), puts a rather different complexion on the whole mess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard#Espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard#Espionage)? Anyway, I will ask you about one thing that's come from my general researches: is there not something very special about the post-Babylonian Jews, in that they uniquely remain a large, cohesive group when e.g. the Samaritans, who had roughly many of the same sorts of experiences, now total 777 as of January 1, 2015 according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Modern_times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Modern_times That alone suggests you are a different identity group from "whites", and thus fall under the "diversity + proximity = war" logic. And, yeah, America is your home. I believe it's my home too, but too many on the Left believe I'm "not America" as Hillary explicitly put it, and I don't think America's live and let live tradition applies any more, many groups including American Jews are simply not willing to leave us alone, so I'm searching for the least worst ways to address this. And I think forcing various native born American groups like yours to relocate (or vice versa) is, or at least has to be on the menu. So is a proposal to revert to the pre-1965 demographics of the US, which would leave your group alone. You certainly know from your people's history that there are much worse selections on the menu. TL;DR: I don't want to tear this away from you, but I think it might be the best of many bad options, and turning that around, what about the tearing away of America from my group? And calling for a ban from HN? That won't make the opinions of people like me go away, are you, for example, saying no one who belongs to the Alt Right should be allowed to contribute to Hacker News? Despite the fact that they work with, sell to, and so on to what I and many others on both sides see as an steadily increasing number of members of it? Would that truly be best for it? The Overton Bubble is clearly a real thing as we've seen from the reactions to his election and the all too many discussions of it and subthreads invoking it on HN, and I don't believe I'm operating out of "hate", or preaching it (well, in this domain, I fully admit to hating gun-grabbers, have expressed that in no uncertain terms on HN before, and been called on it, and have done my best to moderate my expression of it on the issue since then).