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>The large, economy-wide negative impact of regulation are well established by academics. That sounds like an easily made, hard to back up claim.

by mejari 10y ago

mamurphy 10y ago
"Regulations are very costly (in a large, economy-wide way)," to me, sounded like an almost-self-evident, incredibly easy to back up claim. 15 seconds with Google confirmed that initial assessment. http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=yjreg http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... "The Costs and Benefits of Regulation: Review and Synthesis" RW Hahn, Yale Journal of Regulation, Volume 8, Issue 1, Article 9, 1991 The above link was the first Google result for (economy-wide costs of regulations journal) for me, and Google notes that it is cited by hundreds of other articles. The first 10 results all seemed to similarly explain that regulations are costly.
- mejari 10y ago
  Having a cost and having a "large, economy-wide negative impact" are very different things.
  - mamurphy 10y ago
    Why did you feel the need to reply with this sentence? How does it advance our conversation whatsoever? You replied saying >Having a cost and having a "large, economy-wide negative impact" are very different things. Is a large cost not a large negative impact? Are regulations by the federal government not economy-wide? Are you making any discernible point that couldn't have been expressed by "NUH UH, I'M STILL RIGHT LALALALA!"? To pick a random example: The article doesn't say it costs shoppers in Des Moines $4,029 per year due to milk-market regulations. It costs US citizens somewhere between $500 million and $2.1 billion per year - in 1991. The journal article I linked is literally about the large, economy-wide costs of regulations. Your response is a non-sequitor.
    - anigbrowl 10y ago
      You have not demonstrated a net negative cost. In fact, I wonder if you even read the abstract, which states in pertinent part: [Authors] find that previous estimates of the costs of economic regulation probably overstated the true costs by failing to distinguish between transfer payments and net changes in economic efficiency [...] Overall, they find that the efficiency cost due to economic regulation is large and that the benefit from social regulation is positive but small. Their study also finds a huge variation in estimates of the costs and benefits ofparticular regulatory policies, particularly in the transportation sector and in environmental protection. This variation indicates that most estimates may be merely "guesstimates." Going with your random example plucked from the article... [Milk market regulations] cost US citizens somewhere between $500 million and $2.1 billion per year - in 1991. Besides the wild variation, so what? That number is meaningless without the context of the size of the milk market as a whole which would allow us to assess the scope of the burden, not to mention some estimate of the likely economic cost of an unregulated milk marketplace (eg economic losses due to illness from disease). Why do you think it's impressive to pull out a big number like this without any context? It's ridiculous. If we're going to go with cherry-picking argument of this type, I can't help noticing that Americans love milk and almost every American refrigerator I'e ever seen has an open container of milk. So since we're talking about the US as a whole in your example, and there were ~250m Americans in 1991, it seems like these regulations imposed a cost of between $2 and $8 that year on every American...which doesn't sound like all that much to pay for a year of knowing the milk you enjoy is safe to consume. MY household spends about $7-800 a year on dairy products, so back in 1991, and adjusting very generously for inflation, we might have spent $200 to consume the same amount of milk. Using the worst-case number from your paper, positing an upper regulatory burden for every American of $8 and doubling it to represent the two people in my household, maybe $16 of that $200 consisted of regulatory costs. So the worst-case scenario is that regulation drove up the cost of milk by 8%, which doesn't sound like that bad of a trade. Since I've done all the work here so far perhaps you'd like to estimate the benefits of reliably safe milk in terms of avoided medical costs from dairy-borne pathogens.
    - mejari 10y ago
      >Why did you feel the need to reply with this sentence? How does it advance our conversation whatsoever? Because you replied with a link to something that did not further the point under discussion. >Is a large cost not a large negative impact? No, it is not. >The journal article I linked is literally about the large, economy-wide costs of regulations. And it appears to mostly disagree with the point you are trying to make.
  - acedinlowball 10y ago
    Do you think you can explain why someone might think they aren't different things? I'm not sure you can...
    - mejari 10y ago
      Geez, at least give me a chance before you decide what I can't do. The difference is pretty basic: Having a "negative impact" requires value-judgement, having a cost does not. In terms of economics it requires a broad view of the entire economy, whereas a cost can be directly assigned to a single event or series of events. Saying that a regulation has a cost is saying that it requires some expenditure to implement/maintain. Saying it has a negative impact is saying that the expenditure to implement/maintain that regulation outweighs the as-yet-in-this-discussion undefined benefits of the regulation in question.
- gertef 10y ago
  regulations are obviously costly, benefits are obviously great. the important hard question is the net.
  - mamurphy 10y ago
    >regulations are obviously costly, benefits are obviously great. the important hard question is the net. Well of course, but the comment I responded to questioned the assertion that there is a large, economy-wide cost. Is the benefit of (cleaner air/safer highways/magnet-free-toys) worth the cost? That's what the debate ought to be about. But first we all have to agree that there is a cost being paid.
    - mejari 10y ago
      >Well of course, but the comment I responded to questioned the assertion that there is a large, economy-wide cost. No, I did not. The comment I replied to implied a net-negative cost.
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  Finding a citation isn't the same as forming an argument. A 25 year old article is also not a very impressive comeback considering that there has been a lot of new research in economics and in computational analytics over that period. Try harder.
- cbsmith 10y ago
  That paper actually points out that costs have been widely overestimated. It also points out that estimating the costs is very difficult and a lot of estimates out there are pretty hand wavy and/or just made up.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    It also says "Overall, they find that the efficiency cost due to economic regulation is large and that the benefit from social regulation is positive but small."
    - cbsmith 10y ago
      Note the first part is "economic regulation" and the second part is "social regulation".

>The large, economy-wide negative impact of regulation are well established by academics. That sounds like an easily made, hard to back up claim.

by mejari 10y ago

>The large, economy-wide negative impact of regulation are well established by academics. That sounds like an easily made, hard to back up claim.

mamurphy 10y ago

"Regulations are very costly (in a large, economy-wide way)," to me, sounded like an almost-self-evident, incredibly easy to back up claim. 15 seconds with Google confirmed that initial assessment. http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=yjreg http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... "The Costs and Benefits of Regulation: Review and Synthesis" RW Hahn, Yale Journal of Regulation, Volume 8, Issue 1, Article 9, 1991 The above link was the first Google result for (economy-wide costs of regulations journal) for me, and Google notes that it is cited by hundreds of other articles. The first 10 results all seemed to similarly explain that regulations are costly.

mejari 10y ago
Having a cost and having a "large, economy-wide negative impact" are very different things.
- mamurphy 10y ago
  Why did you feel the need to reply with this sentence? How does it advance our conversation whatsoever? You replied saying >Having a cost and having a "large, economy-wide negative impact" are very different things. Is a large cost not a large negative impact? Are regulations by the federal government not economy-wide? Are you making any discernible point that couldn't have been expressed by "NUH UH, I'M STILL RIGHT LALALALA!"? To pick a random example: The article doesn't say it costs shoppers in Des Moines $4,029 per year due to milk-market regulations. It costs US citizens somewhere between $500 million and $2.1 billion per year - in 1991. The journal article I linked is literally about the large, economy-wide costs of regulations. Your response is a non-sequitor.
  - anigbrowl 10y ago
    You have not demonstrated a net negative cost. In fact, I wonder if you even read the abstract, which states in pertinent part: [Authors] find that previous estimates of the costs of economic regulation probably overstated the true costs by failing to distinguish between transfer payments and net changes in economic efficiency [...] Overall, they find that the efficiency cost due to economic regulation is large and that the benefit from social regulation is positive but small. Their study also finds a huge variation in estimates of the costs and benefits ofparticular regulatory policies, particularly in the transportation sector and in environmental protection. This variation indicates that most estimates may be merely "guesstimates." Going with your random example plucked from the article... [Milk market regulations] cost US citizens somewhere between $500 million and $2.1 billion per year - in 1991. Besides the wild variation, so what? That number is meaningless without the context of the size of the milk market as a whole which would allow us to assess the scope of the burden, not to mention some estimate of the likely economic cost of an unregulated milk marketplace (eg economic losses due to illness from disease). Why do you think it's impressive to pull out a big number like this without any context? It's ridiculous. If we're going to go with cherry-picking argument of this type, I can't help noticing that Americans love milk and almost every American refrigerator I'e ever seen has an open container of milk. So since we're talking about the US as a whole in your example, and there were ~250m Americans in 1991, it seems like these regulations imposed a cost of between $2 and $8 that year on every American...which doesn't sound like all that much to pay for a year of knowing the milk you enjoy is safe to consume. MY household spends about $7-800 a year on dairy products, so back in 1991, and adjusting very generously for inflation, we might have spent $200 to consume the same amount of milk. Using the worst-case number from your paper, positing an upper regulatory burden for every American of $8 and doubling it to represent the two people in my household, maybe $16 of that $200 consisted of regulatory costs. So the worst-case scenario is that regulation drove up the cost of milk by 8%, which doesn't sound like that bad of a trade. Since I've done all the work here so far perhaps you'd like to estimate the benefits of reliably safe milk in terms of avoided medical costs from dairy-borne pathogens.
  - mejari 10y ago
    >Why did you feel the need to reply with this sentence? How does it advance our conversation whatsoever? Because you replied with a link to something that did not further the point under discussion. >Is a large cost not a large negative impact? No, it is not. >The journal article I linked is literally about the large, economy-wide costs of regulations. And it appears to mostly disagree with the point you are trying to make.
- acedinlowball 10y ago
  Do you think you can explain why someone might think they aren't different things? I'm not sure you can...
  - mejari 10y ago
    Geez, at least give me a chance before you decide what I can't do. The difference is pretty basic: Having a "negative impact" requires value-judgement, having a cost does not. In terms of economics it requires a broad view of the entire economy, whereas a cost can be directly assigned to a single event or series of events. Saying that a regulation has a cost is saying that it requires some expenditure to implement/maintain. Saying it has a negative impact is saying that the expenditure to implement/maintain that regulation outweighs the as-yet-in-this-discussion undefined benefits of the regulation in question.
gertef 10y ago
regulations are obviously costly, benefits are obviously great. the important hard question is the net.
- mamurphy 10y ago
  >regulations are obviously costly, benefits are obviously great. the important hard question is the net. Well of course, but the comment I responded to questioned the assertion that there is a large, economy-wide cost. Is the benefit of (cleaner air/safer highways/magnet-free-toys) worth the cost? That's what the debate ought to be about. But first we all have to agree that there is a cost being paid.
  - mejari 10y ago
    >Well of course, but the comment I responded to questioned the assertion that there is a large, economy-wide cost. No, I did not. The comment I replied to implied a net-negative cost.
anigbrowl 10y ago
Finding a citation isn't the same as forming an argument. A 25 year old article is also not a very impressive comeback considering that there has been a lot of new research in economics and in computational analytics over that period. Try harder.
cbsmith 10y ago
That paper actually points out that costs have been widely overestimated. It also points out that estimating the costs is very difficult and a lot of estimates out there are pretty hand wavy and/or just made up.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  It also says "Overall, they find that the efficiency cost due to economic regulation is large and that the benefit from social regulation is positive but small."
  - cbsmith 10y ago
    Note the first part is "economic regulation" and the second part is "social regulation".