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You're not understanding me. You say A is better than B, objectively. I'm telling you that B suffices for my purposes. Given that, the fact that A is objectiv

by nudge 16y ago

You're not understanding me. You say A is better than B, objectively. I'm telling you that B suffices for my purposes. Given that, the fact that A is objectively better than B doesn't really matter. That fact's importance is subjective. You find it important. I do not. So you should recognize that what you find as a fault is not necessarily a problem for others, and therefore not necessarily a problem for the project.

agentultra 16y ago
By taking the "it works for me" (relativist) position, you're avoiding the central argument. The OP pointed out that Django's reliance on internal dependencies and import-time side effects is a bad thing. I agreed and added that the internal components themselves aren't bad, but that it's the superior components that other frameworks are using that makes Django bad. There are a lot of people out there who could justify using COBOL by your same logic. I think Mark Ramm was being more prescient than most people give him credit for when he suggested Django could go the way of Zope if it doesn't open up to the wider python eco-system. The Django ORM isn't the best ORM available and I think it hurts Django to not be able to take advantage of better ORMs without having to sacrifice its core features (admin, authentication, etc).
- nudge 16y ago
  I'm not avoiding your argument. I'm telling you it's fallacious. Technologies don't come and go according to whether they're better or worse than other technologies. They really don't. They come and go according to whether enough people decide to use them, or engage with them, or develop them, and so on. If it were as you say then no-one would be using php, which plenty of people would agree is 'worse' than its alternatives. I mean, you're sort of right. Your argument is just missing a step. It may be that Django's difficulty including other toolkits is a weakness. But that only matters when enough people decide it matters. You can call that relativism if you like. It doesn't make any difference. But it could just be that Django works fine enough. Feel free to point out how wrong I am, but if you do it from a qwerty keyboard (an 'objectively' bad keyboard layout), you'll only be proving my point. Problems are only problems when they're problems for people.

by nudge 16y ago

agentultra 16y ago

By taking the "it works for me" (relativist) position, you're avoiding the central argument. The OP pointed out that Django's reliance on internal dependencies and import-time side effects is a bad thing. I agreed and added that the internal components themselves aren't bad, but that it's the superior components that other frameworks are using that makes Django bad. There are a lot of people out there who could justify using COBOL by your same logic. I think Mark Ramm was being more prescient than most people give him credit for when he suggested Django could go the way of Zope if it doesn't open up to the wider python eco-system. The Django ORM isn't the best ORM available and I think it hurts Django to not be able to take advantage of better ORMs without having to sacrifice its core features (admin, authentication, etc).

nudge 16y ago
I'm not avoiding your argument. I'm telling you it's fallacious. Technologies don't come and go according to whether they're better or worse than other technologies. They really don't. They come and go according to whether enough people decide to use them, or engage with them, or develop them, and so on. If it were as you say then no-one would be using php, which plenty of people would agree is 'worse' than its alternatives. I mean, you're sort of right. Your argument is just missing a step. It may be that Django's difficulty including other toolkits is a weakness. But that only matters when enough people decide it matters. You can call that relativism if you like. It doesn't make any difference. But it could just be that Django works fine enough. Feel free to point out how wrong I am, but if you do it from a qwerty keyboard (an 'objectively' bad keyboard layout), you'll only be proving my point. Problems are only problems when they're problems for people.