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While I am all about C/C++ (even if I hate it), it makes sense HN is probably something like 99% web and app developers (I would argue that all are the former,

While I am all about C/C++ (even if I hate it), it makes sense HN is probably something like 99% web and app developers (I would argue that all are the former, but my definition may be a bit old). In those cases, you actively don't want to ever use C and anyone who does is kind of an idiot. It is the logic by which "systems project" means "script to run on a server" for a lot of people around here. And that is fine. But just like this place's obsession with Rust would lead to derisive mockery by "real" systems people, so too is C hated here. It also doesn't help that universities, at least in the US, seem hellbent on teaching along these lines. A few years ago Eclipse was "the thing you use when you are poor or doing Java". These days? I am seeing disturbing numbers of graduates who refuse to use Visual Studio for a project on Windows and insist on boostrapping together something that is only half functional. And talking to my academia friends (and even doing a fair amount of guest lecturing for them), I know where the indoctrination is coming from.

pjmlp 10y ago
My university in the mid-90's already knew it was better to teach safe practices in C++ and Pascal dialects than keep teaching pure C. We were supposed to be able to use C in the OS design classes from our C++ learnings.
- CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
  And I think that is the way to go. I am personally a fan of having more sciencey programs use matlab and more "pure" CS use python as the first languages. Save C/C++ for the lower level stuff (as in OSes and hardware interfaces and optimization). Although, I would argue that nothing beats C++ for teaching OOP and data structures My problem is the almost dogmatic indoctrination that goes along with it. My cousin's Intro to CS class was taught by a professor who spent about a third of the time basically parroting Stallman (he actually would regularly bring up blog posts and articles on the screen and read them to the class...) and screaming about how everyone needs to use either Vim or Jetbrains tools. That isn't teaching. That is pushing an agenda. And it just makes for worse students and hell for those of us who still spend some time with the interns and new hires. Always explore new and better tools. But understand why. Sous-vide is awesome and has the potential to make some of the best food you will ever eat. But it also understand that even a "worse" method can be much more efficient or effective.
  - pg314 10y ago
    I would argue Smalltalk is a far superior language to teach the essence of OOP. Students in Smalltalk will be writing programs in the first hour while their C++ counterparts will still be struggling to understand #includes. To quote Alan Kay: Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.
    - CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
      I am definitely biased, but I think the includes are important and are almost part of the lesson. Teach someone how to write their own containers and classes, then show them that there is a library they can easily access that does a much better job than they ever will and just how easy it is to use. And while there are better languages from an educational standpoint, having something that is usable/"real" is quite valuable. But I definitely approach things from a more practical/industry oriented perspective. so grain of salt.
otabdeveloper1 10y ago
> While I am all about C/C++ (even if I hate it), it makes sense There's no such thing as "C/C++". They're two totally different languages. (C++ actually has more in common with something like Haskell than C.)
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Come on. That nomenclature has been around for decades. We ALL know they're different languages.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dang 10y ago
> HN is probably something like 99% web and app developers Most generalizations about HN are merely projection based on sample bias, so please don't post such generalizations unless you have representative data. We're thinking about adding that sentence to the site guidelines, because spurious general claims about HN are a cliché here.
- CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
  Except that this is a discussion on how news and topics are received at HN. So making a projection based on available data is actually quite reasonable and if there is a sample bias, it is a valid one. Because it doesn't matter if there are nine hundred billion hardcore VHDL folk around here. The most popular discussions tend to be tech related to web technologies and the associated tools. If the consistently popular and top discussions on HN aren't adequate to make a generalization of the general makeup of the active HN users, then I don't know what is. And, I thought it was pretty clear with the "probably something like" and "99%" that it was a number being pulled out of my arse for the sake of discussion. That being said, actual data on the skillsets and interests of the more active members would be a very interesting bit of data. But it is also really hard to measure as lurkers don't contribute to discussion but will gladly vote in a poll.
  - dang 10y ago
    You're not making a projection based on data, you're generalizing from things you personally happened to notice, which is practically the definition of sample bias. It's extremely common to do this (I'm not picking on you personally!), but such generalizations have no objective value and lead to repetitive, low-quality discussion, which is why I think we're going to add a guideline asking people not to do it.
    - CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
      Again, the discussion was about why topics like C/C++ are dismissed/disliked around here and I presented an argument based upon observations in threads. That is actually a valid approach. And if your issue is actually that I very clearly pulled a number out of my arse and went out of my way to make it clear that I had: Are you also going to make it mandatory for everyone to preface every non-cited statement with "in my opinion"? Look, I get that this is your bread and butter and that it is important for HN to be presented as being THE place for tech and blah blah blah and being pigeonholed into "a site for web and app developers who like silicon valley" isn't necessarily what you want, but trying to pretend that a rule to not "generalize" as a way to not have people speculate and discuss why some topics just aren't particularly welcome here isn't the way to go. Just make it a rule, you aren't fooling anyone. Also, if you REALLY wanted to improve discussions here: Make a rule against pseudo-technical naval gazing (is there a term for that? "Naval gazing" is more associated with philosophy and potheads) as far too many threads devolve into "We can't help but be introverted because our minds are designed that way and I need to be isolated to code because I need to optimize everything".

pjmlp 10y ago

My university in the mid-90's already knew it was better to teach safe practices in C++ and Pascal dialects than keep teaching pure C. We were supposed to be able to use C in the OS design classes from our C++ learnings.

CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
And I think that is the way to go. I am personally a fan of having more sciencey programs use matlab and more "pure" CS use python as the first languages. Save C/C++ for the lower level stuff (as in OSes and hardware interfaces and optimization). Although, I would argue that nothing beats C++ for teaching OOP and data structures My problem is the almost dogmatic indoctrination that goes along with it. My cousin's Intro to CS class was taught by a professor who spent about a third of the time basically parroting Stallman (he actually would regularly bring up blog posts and articles on the screen and read them to the class...) and screaming about how everyone needs to use either Vim or Jetbrains tools. That isn't teaching. That is pushing an agenda. And it just makes for worse students and hell for those of us who still spend some time with the interns and new hires. Always explore new and better tools. But understand why. Sous-vide is awesome and has the potential to make some of the best food you will ever eat. But it also understand that even a "worse" method can be much more efficient or effective.
- pg314 10y ago
  I would argue Smalltalk is a far superior language to teach the essence of OOP. Students in Smalltalk will be writing programs in the first hour while their C++ counterparts will still be struggling to understand #includes. To quote Alan Kay: Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.
  - CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
    I am definitely biased, but I think the includes are important and are almost part of the lesson. Teach someone how to write their own containers and classes, then show them that there is a library they can easily access that does a much better job than they ever will and just how easy it is to use. And while there are better languages from an educational standpoint, having something that is usable/"real" is quite valuable. But I definitely approach things from a more practical/industry oriented perspective. so grain of salt.

otabdeveloper1 10y ago

> While I am all about C/C++ (even if I hate it), it makes sense There's no such thing as "C/C++". They're two totally different languages. (C++ actually has more in common with something like Haskell than C.)

JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Come on. That nomenclature has been around for decades. We ALL know they're different languages.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

dang 10y ago

> HN is probably something like 99% web and app developers Most generalizations about HN are merely projection based on sample bias, so please don't post such generalizations unless you have representative data. We're thinking about adding that sentence to the site guidelines, because spurious general claims about HN are a cliché here.

CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
Except that this is a discussion on how news and topics are received at HN. So making a projection based on available data is actually quite reasonable and if there is a sample bias, it is a valid one. Because it doesn't matter if there are nine hundred billion hardcore VHDL folk around here. The most popular discussions tend to be tech related to web technologies and the associated tools. If the consistently popular and top discussions on HN aren't adequate to make a generalization of the general makeup of the active HN users, then I don't know what is. And, I thought it was pretty clear with the "probably something like" and "99%" that it was a number being pulled out of my arse for the sake of discussion. That being said, actual data on the skillsets and interests of the more active members would be a very interesting bit of data. But it is also really hard to measure as lurkers don't contribute to discussion but will gladly vote in a poll.
- dang 10y ago
  You're not making a projection based on data, you're generalizing from things you personally happened to notice, which is practically the definition of sample bias. It's extremely common to do this (I'm not picking on you personally!), but such generalizations have no objective value and lead to repetitive, low-quality discussion, which is why I think we're going to add a guideline asking people not to do it.
  - CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
    Again, the discussion was about why topics like C/C++ are dismissed/disliked around here and I presented an argument based upon observations in threads. That is actually a valid approach. And if your issue is actually that I very clearly pulled a number out of my arse and went out of my way to make it clear that I had: Are you also going to make it mandatory for everyone to preface every non-cited statement with "in my opinion"? Look, I get that this is your bread and butter and that it is important for HN to be presented as being THE place for tech and blah blah blah and being pigeonholed into "a site for web and app developers who like silicon valley" isn't necessarily what you want, but trying to pretend that a rule to not "generalize" as a way to not have people speculate and discuss why some topics just aren't particularly welcome here isn't the way to go. Just make it a rule, you aren't fooling anyone. Also, if you REALLY wanted to improve discussions here: Make a rule against pseudo-technical naval gazing (is there a term for that? "Naval gazing" is more associated with philosophy and potheads) as far too many threads devolve into "We can't help but be introverted because our minds are designed that way and I need to be isolated to code because I need to optimize everything".