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You can test this by rearing a generation of ants with no contact with the previous generation and see if they exhibit the same behavior. My bet would be on th

by amasad 10y ago

You can test this by rearing a generation of ants with no contact with the previous generation and see if they exhibit the same behavior. My bet would be on that it's all innate. I haven't seen examples of intergenerational knowledge transmission in anything other than primates. (Maybe because primate offspring spend much a long time growing up to be adults which gives them time to learn)

arghnoname 10y ago
Cockatoos have been seen to learn tool use from another cockatoo, though I think you could probably attempt to argue otherwise. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28990335 http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28990335
louhike 10y ago
As someone who have seen a lot of wildlife documentaries, I have to disagree. I've seen of lot of cases of parents showing how to find food, how to hunt or find shelter, etc. Most animals are able to learn at least in their youth.
- Quarrelsome 10y ago
  yes but ants are insects, not mammals. Insects have crazy amounts of children and their birthing patterns don't probably don't translate well to learning by example as the parent doesn't have time to teach all the children. I think the innateness is a more likely cause.
  - louhike 10y ago
    I said this because in the parent comment, he said "anything other than primates". I agree it is different for insects and as far as we know they do not seem to learn from others.
  - ryan_j_naughton 10y ago
    Actually the founder of the field sociobiology (or at least the main popularizer) is EO Wilson. He studies ants, and since he effectively founded the field, many scientists who study mammals actually studied under him since there wasn't an established place for sociobiology then. Of course intelligence and sociology/social behavior are different; however, they virtually always have overlaps if any complex intelligence is to occur. It's because you need intergenerational culture to exist in order to build up such knowledge. EO Wilson and others have proven such intergenerational knowledge transfer exists in ants. Intelligence doesn't need to occur at an individual level. The hive can be intelligent through emergent properties and can also maintain state that acts like memory for learned experiences. http://discovermagazine.com/2008/nov/12-wilson-says-ants-live-in-humanlike-civilizations/ http://discovermagazine.com/2008/nov/12-wilson-says-ants-liv... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson http://www.pbs.org/program/eo-wilson/ http://www.pbs.org/program/eo-wilson/
    - amasad 10y ago
      Fascinating. Is there a book that you recommend to read more about this?
mikeash 10y ago
Kittens are taught how to hunt for food by their mother. A lot of that behavior is instinctual, but a good chunk of it is learned. A cat who hasn't been taught to hunt will not be as good at it, and may not realize that the result is edible.
crooked-v 10y ago
Crows will learn basic techniques from each other, like the crows in Japan that drop nuts on crosswalks so car tires will crush the shells, which seems to have started in a single area in Tokyo and spread out from there.
- sprucely 10y ago
  I've watched crows drop walnuts above a road and immediately dive to pick up the cracked shells before the waiting magpies can swoop in. Both appear to be learned strategies.
wavefunction 10y ago
I've observed my dog adopting a behavior learned just from watching another dog for a few minutes: sticking her whole head under water, sometimes for as long as 20 or thirty seconds and pulling up a rock from a creek. She watched another dog doing this for a few minutes then decided she wanted to as well. Before this, she dipped at most her muzzle into the creek. And sure, that's just one example but your claim was too restrictive.
- amasad 10y ago
  I'm glad I said a wrong thing on hackernews because I'm learning so many new things :)
  - groovy2shoes 10y ago
    "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, it's to post the wrong answer." — Cunningham's Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law :)

by amasad 10y ago

arghnoname 10y ago

Cockatoos have been seen to learn tool use from another cockatoo, though I think you could probably attempt to argue otherwise. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28990335 http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28990335

louhike 10y ago

As someone who have seen a lot of wildlife documentaries, I have to disagree. I've seen of lot of cases of parents showing how to find food, how to hunt or find shelter, etc. Most animals are able to learn at least in their youth.

Quarrelsome 10y ago
yes but ants are insects, not mammals. Insects have crazy amounts of children and their birthing patterns don't probably don't translate well to learning by example as the parent doesn't have time to teach all the children. I think the innateness is a more likely cause.
- louhike 10y ago
  I said this because in the parent comment, he said "anything other than primates". I agree it is different for insects and as far as we know they do not seem to learn from others.
- ryan_j_naughton 10y ago
  Actually the founder of the field sociobiology (or at least the main popularizer) is EO Wilson. He studies ants, and since he effectively founded the field, many scientists who study mammals actually studied under him since there wasn't an established place for sociobiology then. Of course intelligence and sociology/social behavior are different; however, they virtually always have overlaps if any complex intelligence is to occur. It's because you need intergenerational culture to exist in order to build up such knowledge. EO Wilson and others have proven such intergenerational knowledge transfer exists in ants. Intelligence doesn't need to occur at an individual level. The hive can be intelligent through emergent properties and can also maintain state that acts like memory for learned experiences. http://discovermagazine.com/2008/nov/12-wilson-says-ants-live-in-humanlike-civilizations/ http://discovermagazine.com/2008/nov/12-wilson-says-ants-liv... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson http://www.pbs.org/program/eo-wilson/ http://www.pbs.org/program/eo-wilson/
  - amasad 10y ago
    Fascinating. Is there a book that you recommend to read more about this?

mikeash 10y ago

Kittens are taught how to hunt for food by their mother. A lot of that behavior is instinctual, but a good chunk of it is learned. A cat who hasn't been taught to hunt will not be as good at it, and may not realize that the result is edible.

crooked-v 10y ago

Crows will learn basic techniques from each other, like the crows in Japan that drop nuts on crosswalks so car tires will crush the shells, which seems to have started in a single area in Tokyo and spread out from there.

sprucely 10y ago
I've watched crows drop walnuts above a road and immediately dive to pick up the cracked shells before the waiting magpies can swoop in. Both appear to be learned strategies.

wavefunction 10y ago

I've observed my dog adopting a behavior learned just from watching another dog for a few minutes: sticking her whole head under water, sometimes for as long as 20 or thirty seconds and pulling up a rock from a creek. She watched another dog doing this for a few minutes then decided she wanted to as well. Before this, she dipped at most her muzzle into the creek. And sure, that's just one example but your claim was too restrictive.

amasad 10y ago
I'm glad I said a wrong thing on hackernews because I'm learning so many new things :)
- groovy2shoes 10y ago
  "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, it's to post the wrong answer." — Cunningham's Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law :)