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> [Jobs:] "we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open." Consider Python. Is it a standard? Yes, because there's an open source

> [Jobs:] "we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open." Consider Python. Is it a standard? Yes, because there's an open source reference implementation. Does it pertain to the web? Yes it does, because http clients and servers can be, and often are, written in this language, and its standard library and 3rd-party open source libraries support http and other web protocols such as HTML. So if you're so keen on stand ards Steve, why can't I write web software in Python for the iPhone and iPad? Why are you such a hypocrite? On a wider note: Steve, do you want to spend the rest of your life selling sugar-coated digital handcuffs, or do you to change the world for the better?

prodigal_erik 17y ago
A reference implementation is a good test suite but a poor substitute for a standard. It's huge and you can't just sit down and read it, you have to simulate it in your head to really understand what it would allow or demand. (This is also an awful problem with the HTML5 spec.)
- cabalamat 17y ago
  On the contrary, its a written standard that you "have to simulate in your head". If you have an implementation, you can simply run the code and see what it does!
danudey 17y ago
Is python really a 'standard'? Python's had trouble lately with non-mainline implementations because the grammar keeps changing. There's no standards document laying out how the language should behave, in the sense of 'Jython is compatible with the Python language 2.5'; rather, third-party implementations duplicate features and functionality from CPython based off the PEP they're defined in. Does it pertain to the web? It doesn't. Python isn't used 'on the web', it's used on the backend to generate web pages, as is C#, Erlang, and pretty much every other language ever. Are you suggesting that Apple should include a Python interpreter in WebKit? It sounds like that's what you're suggesting. The simple answer would be 'because Python is not a language that is used in client-side scripting anywhere on the web'. No other browser supports it, and even if they did it wouldn't be widely used. Your argument seems not only spurious but nonsensical. Python is used to send or receive documents over HTTP, so therefore I should be able to write a web app in Python to run on the iPhone? It doesn't make sense. My home cable internet 'pertains to the web' too, and it uses documented standards like DOCSIS, so why doesn't my iPhone support DOCSIS? It's a ridiculous argument, as is yours.
- cabalamat 17y ago
  > Is python really a 'standard'? In an important sense I think it is. If I write a program in Python I can be reasonably sure it will run on someone else's system (obviously I have to take into account different Python versions, different underlying OS, etc). If I write a program in C++ or Scheme, what assurances of portability do I have if someone else's system is running a different implementation, with different libraries available, and different underlying behaviour in edge cases. > rather, third-party implementations duplicate features and functionality from CPython based off the PEP they're defined in. Yes; CPython is the standard. It's better if the standard is a program rather than a document, because you can run a program and find out what it does, but a document just sits there and does nothing (and may be hard to understand or ambiguous; the spec for Algol 68 comes to mind here). > Python isn't used 'on the web', it's used on the backend to generate web pages It is used as an http client as well as a server. > Are you suggesting that Apple should include a Python interpreter in WebKit? No, I'm suggesting that Apple should open up their platforms and allow people who have bought iPhones and iPads to run software of their own choosing on them; I'm sure someone would port Python fairly quickly. > The simple answer would be 'because Python is not a language that is used in client-side scripting anywhere on the web'. That's factually inaccurate; I personally have written code in Python that acts as a web client. As have some of my friends. > No other browser supports it, and even if they did it wouldn't be widely used. You seem to be under the misapprehension that client-side web programming must involve running inside a graphical web browser. This is not the case. Ever heard of wget? Or scraping? > Python is used to send or receive documents over HTTP, so therefore I should be able to write a web app in Python to run on the iPhone? It doesn't make sense. Yes it does. For example, I might want to write a program to cache certain web pages so I can read them even if I'm in an area with poor wifi and 3G access. And I might want to write that program in Python.
jarek 17y ago
The sad thing is Steve, along with many others, totally, entirely believes that selling sugar-coated digital handcuffs is changing the world for the better.
- cromulent 17y ago
  So...are you saying that Steve Job's efforts have made the world worse, or no difference at all?
nwjsmith 17y ago
"why can't I write web software in Python for the iPhone and iPad?" Ummm... you can. If you write 'web software' in Python, all an iPhone/iPad user needs in order to use it is the URL. Both devices have a best-in-class web browser that would be more than capable of running your web software well. Also, check this out: http://cl.ly/k0t http://cl.ly/k0t Apple is putting effort into make web apps first-class citizens on their devices.
mattmillr 17y ago
If Jobs had said "We strongly believe that you should be able to develop on the iPad and iPhone using all open standards pertaining to the web," you would have a point. Your logic is all twisty. "We only want to support open standards" does not imply "we want to support all open standards."

prodigal_erik 17y ago

A reference implementation is a good test suite but a poor substitute for a standard. It's huge and you can't just sit down and read it, you have to simulate it in your head to really understand what it would allow or demand. (This is also an awful problem with the HTML5 spec.)

cabalamat 17y ago
On the contrary, its a written standard that you "have to simulate in your head". If you have an implementation, you can simply run the code and see what it does!

danudey 17y ago

Is python really a 'standard'? Python's had trouble lately with non-mainline implementations because the grammar keeps changing. There's no standards document laying out how the language should behave, in the sense of 'Jython is compatible with the Python language 2.5'; rather, third-party implementations duplicate features and functionality from CPython based off the PEP they're defined in. Does it pertain to the web? It doesn't. Python isn't used 'on the web', it's used on the backend to generate web pages, as is C#, Erlang, and pretty much every other language ever. Are you suggesting that Apple should include a Python interpreter in WebKit? It sounds like that's what you're suggesting. The simple answer would be 'because Python is not a language that is used in client-side scripting anywhere on the web'. No other browser supports it, and even if they did it wouldn't be widely used. Your argument seems not only spurious but nonsensical. Python is used to send or receive documents over HTTP, so therefore I should be able to write a web app in Python to run on the iPhone? It doesn't make sense. My home cable internet 'pertains to the web' too, and it uses documented standards like DOCSIS, so why doesn't my iPhone support DOCSIS? It's a ridiculous argument, as is yours.

cabalamat 17y ago
> Is python really a 'standard'? In an important sense I think it is. If I write a program in Python I can be reasonably sure it will run on someone else's system (obviously I have to take into account different Python versions, different underlying OS, etc). If I write a program in C++ or Scheme, what assurances of portability do I have if someone else's system is running a different implementation, with different libraries available, and different underlying behaviour in edge cases. > rather, third-party implementations duplicate features and functionality from CPython based off the PEP they're defined in. Yes; CPython is the standard. It's better if the standard is a program rather than a document, because you can run a program and find out what it does, but a document just sits there and does nothing (and may be hard to understand or ambiguous; the spec for Algol 68 comes to mind here). > Python isn't used 'on the web', it's used on the backend to generate web pages It is used as an http client as well as a server. > Are you suggesting that Apple should include a Python interpreter in WebKit? No, I'm suggesting that Apple should open up their platforms and allow people who have bought iPhones and iPads to run software of their own choosing on them; I'm sure someone would port Python fairly quickly. > The simple answer would be 'because Python is not a language that is used in client-side scripting anywhere on the web'. That's factually inaccurate; I personally have written code in Python that acts as a web client. As have some of my friends. > No other browser supports it, and even if they did it wouldn't be widely used. You seem to be under the misapprehension that client-side web programming must involve running inside a graphical web browser. This is not the case. Ever heard of wget? Or scraping? > Python is used to send or receive documents over HTTP, so therefore I should be able to write a web app in Python to run on the iPhone? It doesn't make sense. Yes it does. For example, I might want to write a program to cache certain web pages so I can read them even if I'm in an area with poor wifi and 3G access. And I might want to write that program in Python.

jarek 17y ago

The sad thing is Steve, along with many others, totally, entirely believes that selling sugar-coated digital handcuffs is changing the world for the better.

cromulent 17y ago
So...are you saying that Steve Job's efforts have made the world worse, or no difference at all?

nwjsmith 17y ago

"why can't I write web software in Python for the iPhone and iPad?" Ummm... you can. If you write 'web software' in Python, all an iPhone/iPad user needs in order to use it is the URL. Both devices have a best-in-class web browser that would be more than capable of running your web software well. Also, check this out: http://cl.ly/k0t http://cl.ly/k0t Apple is putting effort into make web apps first-class citizens on their devices.

mattmillr 17y ago

If Jobs had said "We strongly believe that you should be able to develop on the iPad and iPhone using all open standards pertaining to the web," you would have a point. Your logic is all twisty. "We only want to support open standards" does not imply "we want to support all open standards."