4 ms·

What he describes as the "most important reason" is also the big mistake here. If using certain libraries or cross-platform development tools truly did result

by pg 17y ago

What he describes as the "most important reason" is also the big mistake here. If using certain libraries or cross-platform development tools truly did result in worse apps, then the market would take care of that. He also doesn't seem to understand that such tools do not all totally hide the underlying APIs. They fall along a continuum in that respect. And in trying to ban extreme cases like Flash, Apple has also basically banned compilers. Every programmer I've talked to about this thought it was some combination of stupid and evil (there ought to be a word for that; stevil?) to insist that apps be written only in C, C++, and Objective-C. Surely there must be people fairly high up in Apple who realize what a crazy move it is to try to dictate to hackers what programming language they should use. It worries me that those people aren't being heard.

prodigal_erik 17y ago
I'm starting to suspect that Apple really requires proprietary APIs and decrepit languages for the same reasons Spolsky[1] once said Microsoft used proprietary and huge and ever-changing APIs. It's cover fire to make everyone else's projects soak up more hours, increasing the fraction of captive developers and shops who are only experienced in iPhone OS work, rather than being prepared for work on iPhone OS and other platforms. [1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html
- Vivtek 17y ago
  Why was this downvoted? I thought it was a reasonable point.
- jmatt 17y ago
  I'm starting to suspect that Apple really requires proprietary APIs and decrepit languages for the same reasons Spolsky[1] once said Microsoft used proprietary and huge and ever-changing APIs. Microsoft finally addressed this and stabilized their APIs but they were somewhere between 5 and 10 years too late. Circa .NET 2.0 + in my opinion as an ex-.NET programmer. Apple could easily end up in the same situation if they continue down this road. EDIT: Detail
ptomato 17y ago
I do think it is reasonably evil, but I'll be very surprised if, say, Apple enforces this against somebody writing software in a lisp, or all the games using Lua or Unity. But saying literally "You can't write software in Flash" makes for somewhat questionable legal language.
- smallblacksun 17y ago
  One of the regulatory tests for abusing market position is unevenly applying rules to lock-out certain competitors. If Apple does allow things that are technically forbidden, but ban flash, they may open themselves up to an anti-trust lawsuit.
  - ptomato 17y ago
    Wouldn't this apply more if Adobe was competing with Apple? Also if Apple had a monopoly on anything?
Nelson69 17y ago
I'll buck that for you. I don't just dismiss it as stupid and evil. There are 2 things that stand out to me which aren't being discussed. 1) Apple has maybe the very best record in supporting their customers' software through various multiplatform upgrades. If you've been on board with them, they've taken you from 68000 to PowerPC to Intel and they've had bloody seamless transitions. Perhaps that has something to do with their desire to specify how apps are built and which tools are used to build them. FWIW, they did their own iPad chip but they bought one off the shelf for iPhone, I'd imagine that they will have their own phone chip before too long. This just seems logical and sensical to me and it's possible they might alter the architecture in some way and maybe want to dynamically translate the existing apps. 2) If you look at iPhone and iPad, they clearly had some foresight and vision when they did the phone. They didn't accidentally build the iPad and it turned out to run the same software and be compatible. Perhaps there is something else that they have in mind in the coming years or two. Maybe you'll be able to use app store apps on AppleTV. Who knows, maybe there will be some other device too.
doki_pen 17y ago
Stevil is the best thing I've heard all week!
jmatt 17y ago
Every programmer I've talked to about this thought it was some combination of stupid and evil (there ought to be a word for that; stevil?) to insist that apps be written only in C, C++, and Objective-C. Ya it's insane. I have no idea how they can be this out of touch with the development community. Even the Microsoft developers that I know think it's evil and restrictive. Microsoft has failed in a lot of ways in the past but one thing they've gotten right is .NET. It's relatively open and they are beginning to actively support other languages. So instead of .NET and the CLR dieing off people can innovate on top of the runtime and continue to compete at some level with other dynamic languages. The same goes for java and the JVM. My biggest fear now is Apple will decide to slowly but surely drop OS X support and begin the transition of moving the majority of users over to a new locked down stevil new Operating System.
asdflkj 17y ago
The market might summarily "take care" of iPhone itself. There are many people (young people) who don't know anything about design or hacking, but they know enough to make an app in Flash--sort of. And when people buy those apps that look, feel and work like crap, they'll think iPhone itself is crap. Sure, they might pay for more expensive apps (those that are still in business), but once you get in the habit of paying little, it's hard to start paying a lot. I still buy cheap motherboards and curse myself later. And, once you get in the habit of getting crap, it's hard to expect anything more for your money. At this point, Apple has no edge over Android. Et cetera. I can see a strong case for why it's evil, but to show that it's stupid would require thorough understanding of what a clueless, fickle public would do. Maybe the business morlocks at Apple are better at that than we are, and maybe we're better for it.

by pg 17y ago

prodigal_erik 17y ago

I'm starting to suspect that Apple really requires proprietary APIs and decrepit languages for the same reasons Spolsky[1] once said Microsoft used proprietary and huge and ever-changing APIs. It's cover fire to make everyone else's projects soak up more hours, increasing the fraction of captive developers and shops who are only experienced in iPhone OS work, rather than being prepared for work on iPhone OS and other platforms. [1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html

Vivtek 17y ago
Why was this downvoted? I thought it was a reasonable point.
jmatt 17y ago
I'm starting to suspect that Apple really requires proprietary APIs and decrepit languages for the same reasons Spolsky[1] once said Microsoft used proprietary and huge and ever-changing APIs. Microsoft finally addressed this and stabilized their APIs but they were somewhere between 5 and 10 years too late. Circa .NET 2.0 + in my opinion as an ex-.NET programmer. Apple could easily end up in the same situation if they continue down this road. EDIT: Detail

ptomato 17y ago

I do think it is reasonably evil, but I'll be very surprised if, say, Apple enforces this against somebody writing software in a lisp, or all the games using Lua or Unity. But saying literally "You can't write software in Flash" makes for somewhat questionable legal language.

smallblacksun 17y ago
One of the regulatory tests for abusing market position is unevenly applying rules to lock-out certain competitors. If Apple does allow things that are technically forbidden, but ban flash, they may open themselves up to an anti-trust lawsuit.
- ptomato 17y ago
  Wouldn't this apply more if Adobe was competing with Apple? Also if Apple had a monopoly on anything?

Nelson69 17y ago

I'll buck that for you. I don't just dismiss it as stupid and evil. There are 2 things that stand out to me which aren't being discussed. 1) Apple has maybe the very best record in supporting their customers' software through various multiplatform upgrades. If you've been on board with them, they've taken you from 68000 to PowerPC to Intel and they've had bloody seamless transitions. Perhaps that has something to do with their desire to specify how apps are built and which tools are used to build them. FWIW, they did their own iPad chip but they bought one off the shelf for iPhone, I'd imagine that they will have their own phone chip before too long. This just seems logical and sensical to me and it's possible they might alter the architecture in some way and maybe want to dynamically translate the existing apps. 2) If you look at iPhone and iPad, they clearly had some foresight and vision when they did the phone. They didn't accidentally build the iPad and it turned out to run the same software and be compatible. Perhaps there is something else that they have in mind in the coming years or two. Maybe you'll be able to use app store apps on AppleTV. Who knows, maybe there will be some other device too.

doki_pen 17y ago

Stevil is the best thing I've heard all week!

jmatt 17y ago

Every programmer I've talked to about this thought it was some combination of stupid and evil (there ought to be a word for that; stevil?) to insist that apps be written only in C, C++, and Objective-C. Ya it's insane. I have no idea how they can be this out of touch with the development community. Even the Microsoft developers that I know think it's evil and restrictive. Microsoft has failed in a lot of ways in the past but one thing they've gotten right is .NET. It's relatively open and they are beginning to actively support other languages. So instead of .NET and the CLR dieing off people can innovate on top of the runtime and continue to compete at some level with other dynamic languages. The same goes for java and the JVM. My biggest fear now is Apple will decide to slowly but surely drop OS X support and begin the transition of moving the majority of users over to a new locked down stevil new Operating System.

asdflkj 17y ago

The market might summarily "take care" of iPhone itself. There are many people (young people) who don't know anything about design or hacking, but they know enough to make an app in Flash--sort of. And when people buy those apps that look, feel and work like crap, they'll think iPhone itself is crap. Sure, they might pay for more expensive apps (those that are still in business), but once you get in the habit of paying little, it's hard to start paying a lot. I still buy cheap motherboards and curse myself later. And, once you get in the habit of getting crap, it's hard to expect anything more for your money. At this point, Apple has no edge over Android. Et cetera. I can see a strong case for why it's evil, but to show that it's stupid would require thorough understanding of what a clueless, fickle public would do. Maybe the business morlocks at Apple are better at that than we are, and maybe we're better for it.