7 ms·

"Japanese people will rarely call out any grammar/pronunciation error" & "In Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as "oh, he's

"Japanese people will rarely call out any grammar/pronunciation error" & "In Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as "oh, he's just a foreigner", and they hold you to similar standards." There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] but this is not limited to Japan, I also saw it in France too with foreigners trying to speak French. Also even in a cultural area there can be wide differences. Almost all Mandarin speakers I interact with (be they Taiwanese, mainlanders or huaqiao) seemed quite happy to talk their language with me. The Japanese not so much. I even sometimes hide my Japanese language ability and play it dumb to fit more in a group. And I plan not to expose a too great ability the day I got it unless necessary precisely too avoid being judged to harsh by the local standards. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80

ajeet_dhaliwal 10y ago
There's a UK comedy show from a few years ago called Little Britain that has this same thing happening in a recurring skit except with English. There was a British woman who claimed to never understand what an old Indian woman wearing a sari with an Indian accent was saying despite it being quite clear. I wonder whether this is some low level passive aggressive behaviour around the world due annoyance of dealing with a 'foreigner'.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  Cringe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpiAhxaE_oI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpiAhxaE_oI I don't think I've ever met anyone in England like this, but I can well believe they exist.
  - walshemj 10y ago
    The infamous racist nan that Gordon Brown ran into wilst campaigning.
- greggman 10y ago
  The difference in Japan is you can have zero accent and speak fluently and just by looks some Japanese will have some kind of mental block understanding and/or acknowledging your Japanese. Examples: I can call some business on the phone and people won't know I'm a foreigner. No accent. I've gotten in a cab late at night, talked to the driver for 10 minutes, and then had him freak out went he turned around to collect the fair because based on conversation he thought his ride was Japanese. I bring those examples up only to point out having zero accent and being able to speak in a way that I'm perceived as being fluent. And yet I still run into people who's brains seems unable to accept that I'm speaking Japanese to them. It's a common complaint by friends who've been here 15-20-25 years that they still get this. Over time I've learned to accept they are trying to be helpful and I'm the 1 in 50 or 1 in 100 foreigners that can speak Japanese well so just thank them ... in ridiculously polite Japanese.
  - laurieg 10y ago
    I share the same experience in Japan. Once a blue moon someone will just not be able to process a white face speaking Japanese. I think it's because languages are all about expectations. If some piece of information has primed me to hear one version of a homophone the other meanings never even pop into my head. I've noticed a related effect while watching videos on youtube recently. I'm a native British English speaker. When I click on a random youtube clip I don't know what accent I'm going to get. If it's a strong accent I don't hear often it usually takes 5 seconds or so for my brain to 'work out' the accent. During that time I don't really understand what is being said. As soon as it clicks I can rewind the clip and hear the exact same audio with perfect understanding. I think when the Japanese people don't understand me a similar thing is happening. They see my white face so are trying very hard to hear English. The sounds come out and are run through the 'process the English' part of their brain. Of course, they can't make heads or tails of it so end up not understanding anything. I'm not a linguist but I'd love to know if anyone had any references on this effect.
    - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
      As Bruce Willis said in Fifth Element, I only speak two languages, English and bad English. Yet I've had the funny experience of "translating" between Vietnamese English and Bosnian English. But yeah, when native-born Anericans act like your English is unacceptable, they're being assholes.
pimlottc 10y ago
I wonder if there isn't perhaps somewhat like an uncanny valley of language, wherein it's even more confusing when someone is using the right words and pronunciation but not quite putting them together in the normal way. Sort of like the famous Yahoo Answers query: "Has anyone ever been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100225111311AAozUMa https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100225111311A...
- user837387 10y ago
  Nah, it is just a way for people to make themselves feel superior. It happens a lot here in America too. I think my english is fine, but say one word just a tiny bit off and some of them will make a "what?" with a face of pure confusion as if you were speaking in a completely foreign language. My main language is Spanish and when I speak with people practicing their Spanish I can usually understand them no matter their accent or how bad their pronunciation is. It has to be really bad for me not to understand them. The context of the conversation helps a lot too. But here in America say a word a bit off and people make a big deal out of it. C'est la vie.
  - floopidydoopidy 10y ago
    We have a team of non-native English speakers at my work. Hindi, Mandarin, Italian, Argentinian Spanish, and some wacky english accents like Newfie, Scottish, Irish, German... After a while they all just become "language" and your mind handles it fine. But new people have such a hard time swapping between hearing the different languages. But yeah some people are just jerks too.
dutchieinfrance 10y ago
Sorry to go off on a tangent, but where in France did you experience this? I'm a non-native speaker of French and I have never experienced this, not even when I was in my teens still learning French.
- sporkenfang 10y ago
  Paris is famous for it, though I've been to several parts of France and didn't have much issue... old people definitely tried to correct my accent but that's fine by me.
  - renox 10y ago
    I'm not exactly sure what is the issue? My step-sister is Irish, I talk to her in English and she talk to me in French: this way we can practise our knowledge of foreign language. At work sometimes I did the reverse: a colleague would speak English and I would answer French, it's nice also: no cognitive load when you talk, you just have to be a little careful when you listen.
- dutchieinfrance 10y ago
  Actually, if you come across as a "stereotypical American" then, yes, I can imagine you ran into this. Cf. the movie "A Good Year", where Russell Crowe instructs Americans in a French restaurant to go to McDonald's because they're being obnoxious (apparently).
- KennyCason 10y ago
  Having never been to France, but heard a lot of stories, this may be a France <-> American issue more than a France <-> Foreigner issue.
- jimworm 10y ago
  Once at the railway station in Dunkerque. I started by asking the ticket officer in French if she spoke English, but after she said no she refused to listen. Fortunately there were two booths open and my bad French was better received by the kind girl working there. Good thing too, she was our only way out of town.
KennyCason 10y ago
"There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] but this is not limited to Japan, I also saw it in France too with foreigners trying to speak French." I have encountered this as well. It also happens more frequently from foreigners who have learned English (perhaps even better than your studying of language X) and they just don't want to talk to you in their language. Fortunately, most people are not like this, and from my experience of both Japanese/Chinese people, they are very open to communicate with you in their language. With the only exception being that you have to speak a bit more Chinese before English speaking Chinese people will agree to speak Chinese regularly with you, versus Japanese where they will speak Japanese to you from almost day one if you want. (which is a blessing and problem since you won't understand much) haha
RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 10y ago
> There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] That was my impression when I'd studied in Japan decades ago (but TBH it was so long ago I can't really recall if it had happened to me personally), however it seems that it is getting better. I actually saw your linked video by way of another [0], and the people he'd interviews generally finds the scenario ridiculous, too. Moreover, there's a follow-up video [1] where he put the premise* to the test, and majority of people replied in Japanese back. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLBShiGoJFo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLBShiGoJFo [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TofNjIjt0TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TofNjIjt0TQ (*) TBF, the various sampling / editorial biases aside, his setup was not quite right in the follow-up video. He should have had a pair, one Japanese and one foreigner, had the foreigner ask for directions, and see if the test subjects a) replied back in Japanese, and b) repeatedly directed their replies to the Japanese of the pair.

ajeet_dhaliwal 10y ago

There's a UK comedy show from a few years ago called Little Britain that has this same thing happening in a recurring skit except with English. There was a British woman who claimed to never understand what an old Indian woman wearing a sari with an Indian accent was saying despite it being quite clear. I wonder whether this is some low level passive aggressive behaviour around the world due annoyance of dealing with a 'foreigner'.

Symbiote 10y ago
Cringe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpiAhxaE_oI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpiAhxaE_oI I don't think I've ever met anyone in England like this, but I can well believe they exist.
- walshemj 10y ago
  The infamous racist nan that Gordon Brown ran into wilst campaigning.
greggman 10y ago
The difference in Japan is you can have zero accent and speak fluently and just by looks some Japanese will have some kind of mental block understanding and/or acknowledging your Japanese. Examples: I can call some business on the phone and people won't know I'm a foreigner. No accent. I've gotten in a cab late at night, talked to the driver for 10 minutes, and then had him freak out went he turned around to collect the fair because based on conversation he thought his ride was Japanese. I bring those examples up only to point out having zero accent and being able to speak in a way that I'm perceived as being fluent. And yet I still run into people who's brains seems unable to accept that I'm speaking Japanese to them. It's a common complaint by friends who've been here 15-20-25 years that they still get this. Over time I've learned to accept they are trying to be helpful and I'm the 1 in 50 or 1 in 100 foreigners that can speak Japanese well so just thank them ... in ridiculously polite Japanese.
- laurieg 10y ago
  I share the same experience in Japan. Once a blue moon someone will just not be able to process a white face speaking Japanese. I think it's because languages are all about expectations. If some piece of information has primed me to hear one version of a homophone the other meanings never even pop into my head. I've noticed a related effect while watching videos on youtube recently. I'm a native British English speaker. When I click on a random youtube clip I don't know what accent I'm going to get. If it's a strong accent I don't hear often it usually takes 5 seconds or so for my brain to 'work out' the accent. During that time I don't really understand what is being said. As soon as it clicks I can rewind the clip and hear the exact same audio with perfect understanding. I think when the Japanese people don't understand me a similar thing is happening. They see my white face so are trying very hard to hear English. The sounds come out and are run through the 'process the English' part of their brain. Of course, they can't make heads or tails of it so end up not understanding anything. I'm not a linguist but I'd love to know if anyone had any references on this effect.
  - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
    As Bruce Willis said in Fifth Element, I only speak two languages, English and bad English. Yet I've had the funny experience of "translating" between Vietnamese English and Bosnian English. But yeah, when native-born Anericans act like your English is unacceptable, they're being assholes.

pimlottc 10y ago

I wonder if there isn't perhaps somewhat like an uncanny valley of language, wherein it's even more confusing when someone is using the right words and pronunciation but not quite putting them together in the normal way. Sort of like the famous Yahoo Answers query: "Has anyone ever been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100225111311AAozUMa https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100225111311A...

user837387 10y ago
Nah, it is just a way for people to make themselves feel superior. It happens a lot here in America too. I think my english is fine, but say one word just a tiny bit off and some of them will make a "what?" with a face of pure confusion as if you were speaking in a completely foreign language. My main language is Spanish and when I speak with people practicing their Spanish I can usually understand them no matter their accent or how bad their pronunciation is. It has to be really bad for me not to understand them. The context of the conversation helps a lot too. But here in America say a word a bit off and people make a big deal out of it. C'est la vie.
- floopidydoopidy 10y ago
  We have a team of non-native English speakers at my work. Hindi, Mandarin, Italian, Argentinian Spanish, and some wacky english accents like Newfie, Scottish, Irish, German... After a while they all just become "language" and your mind handles it fine. But new people have such a hard time swapping between hearing the different languages. But yeah some people are just jerks too.

dutchieinfrance 10y ago

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but where in France did you experience this? I'm a non-native speaker of French and I have never experienced this, not even when I was in my teens still learning French.

sporkenfang 10y ago
Paris is famous for it, though I've been to several parts of France and didn't have much issue... old people definitely tried to correct my accent but that's fine by me.
- renox 10y ago
  I'm not exactly sure what is the issue? My step-sister is Irish, I talk to her in English and she talk to me in French: this way we can practise our knowledge of foreign language. At work sometimes I did the reverse: a colleague would speak English and I would answer French, it's nice also: no cognitive load when you talk, you just have to be a little careful when you listen.
dutchieinfrance 10y ago
Actually, if you come across as a "stereotypical American" then, yes, I can imagine you ran into this. Cf. the movie "A Good Year", where Russell Crowe instructs Americans in a French restaurant to go to McDonald's because they're being obnoxious (apparently).
KennyCason 10y ago
Having never been to France, but heard a lot of stories, this may be a France <-> American issue more than a France <-> Foreigner issue.
jimworm 10y ago
Once at the railway station in Dunkerque. I started by asking the ticket officer in French if she spoke English, but after she said no she refused to listen. Fortunately there were two booths open and my bad French was better received by the kind girl working there. Good thing too, she was our only way out of town.

KennyCason 10y ago

"There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] but this is not limited to Japan, I also saw it in France too with foreigners trying to speak French." I have encountered this as well. It also happens more frequently from foreigners who have learned English (perhaps even better than your studying of language X) and they just don't want to talk to you in their language. Fortunately, most people are not like this, and from my experience of both Japanese/Chinese people, they are very open to communicate with you in their language. With the only exception being that you have to speak a bit more Chinese before English speaking Chinese people will agree to speak Chinese regularly with you, versus Japanese where they will speak Japanese to you from almost day one if you want. (which is a blessing and problem since you won't understand much) haha

RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 10y ago

> There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] That was my impression when I'd studied in Japan decades ago (but TBH it was so long ago I can't really recall if it had happened to me personally), however it seems that it is getting better. I actually saw your linked video by way of another [0], and the people he'd interviews generally finds the scenario ridiculous, too. Moreover, there's a follow-up video [1] where he put the premise* to the test, and majority of people replied in Japanese back. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLBShiGoJFo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLBShiGoJFo [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TofNjIjt0TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TofNjIjt0TQ (*) TBF, the various sampling / editorial biases aside, his setup was not quite right in the follow-up video. He should have had a pair, one Japanese and one foreigner, had the foreigner ask for directions, and see if the test subjects a) replied back in Japanese, and b) repeatedly directed their replies to the Japanese of the pair.