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"Confucian behaviorism is optimized for a Confucian society, and western behaviorism is optimized for western society." This is so true. Speaking Chinese/Japane
by KennyCason 10y ago
"Confucian behaviorism is optimized for a Confucian society, and western behaviorism is optimized for western society."
This is so true. Speaking Chinese/Japanese on a daily basis and regularly interacting with these two cultures, I would regularly encounter such differences.
In Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as "oh, he's just a foreigner", and they hold you to similar standards. I.e. You should be careful how you express your opinion/thoughts to an elder.
Similarly, in China, it took me a bit to adjust to how direct Chinese people were about certain topics. For example, they will call you "fat" or call out many personal flaws that we would not do in America. (I know this is counter to the traditional thinking that Chinese are very withdrawn).
Similarly, with language, Japanese people will rarely call out any grammar/pronunciation error. Instead, they will ask a question, or give a gesture that you have to read into and infer from. Chinese people will call you out very directly, maybe even embarrass you in front of people to the point where you are too shy to speak. They don't mean it personal, they are just more open to this sort of direct personal criticism.
The author also mentioned jokes. I can relate to this, learning the language, let alone the culture is hard enough. Often times, humor is even harder as it requires a deep understanding of both language and culture.
Like the other said, the list goes on and on, but these things take so many years to adapt to and overcome. They are huge barriers to cultural integration.
I have a lot of respect for foreigners who even attempt to integrate with our culture (and vice versa).
p.s. I admit, I have gained some weight, so the criticism is deserved :)
- berneezy3 10y agoThanks for the read, Kenny! I can't imagine the constant transition between western, Chinese, then Japanese culture, though I'm sure it must be very rewarding to you through it all!
- KennyCason 10y agoThanks for the post as well. As you can imagine it takes a lot of effort, but is definitely very rewarding as you gain a lot of valuable world perspective. :)
- gaius 10y agoChinese people will call you out very directly, maybe even embarrass you in front of people to the point where you are too shy to speak I wonder if this is an inherent Chinese thing or a Maoist thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session
- leemailll 10y agoIt is not a Maoist thing. Why you think the two would have any connection?
- gaius 10y agoAre you asking what is the connection between China and Mao?
- shaobo 10y agoHe is asking why are you overthinking this? People in China have put the cultural revolution behind them, it might be helpful for others to do the same when attempting to psychoanalyse present day Chinese behaviours. Your weight, your age and how much you earn are not taboo subjects in China, so people will bring them up in casual conversations.
- VLM 10y agoTo localize the argument, aren't you claiming something like "the civil war ended in 1865 therefore historical black and white issues are no longer relevant in modern America"
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- witty_username 10y agoWell, slavery is mostly no longer a relevant issue in the U.S.
- titanix2 10y ago"Japanese people will rarely call out any grammar/pronunciation error" & "In Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as "oh, he's just a foreigner", and they hold you to similar standards." There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] but this is not limited to Japan, I also saw it in France too with foreigners trying to speak French. Also even in a cultural area there can be wide differences. Almost all Mandarin speakers I interact with (be they Taiwanese, mainlanders or huaqiao) seemed quite happy to talk their language with me. The Japanese not so much. I even sometimes hide my Japanese language ability and play it dumb to fit more in a group. And I plan not to expose a too great ability the day I got it unless necessary precisely too avoid being judged to harsh by the local standards. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80
- ajeet_dhaliwal 10y agoThere's a UK comedy show from a few years ago called Little Britain that has this same thing happening in a recurring skit except with English. There was a British woman who claimed to never understand what an old Indian woman wearing a sari with an Indian accent was saying despite it being quite clear. I wonder whether this is some low level passive aggressive behaviour around the world due annoyance of dealing with a 'foreigner'.
- future1979 10y agoInteresting comment on being called fat. I'm a bit, shall we say, big boned. And I experienced two odd instances where a Chinese person I barely knew casually remarked how fat I was. It was otherwise a pleasant conversation and had me a bit confused. If a stranger said that to you in America, it would certainly be considered mean.
- Symbiote 10y agoYet Americans would tell a stranger that they're tall, or occasionally short.
- ido 10y agoYou can't change how tall or short you are tho, so that's not in any way commenting on your character. In "western" (not just American) cultures, calling somewhat fat is basically calling them gluttonous or lazy (both among the 7 deadly sins).
- throwthisawayt 10y agoNot in the rest of America (I.e Latin America) where that would be common and even a term of endearment (gordita). It's common in South Asian cultures as well. To me Americans are focused on being PC while not dealing with the root cause. In the case of "fat" the root problems is that Americans tend to shame & hate those who are fat. It has become a negative stigma, but instead of attacking the root cause we have removed fat as an adjective and think that by removing the hateful term (hateful by usage not by definition) we have solved the problem.
- throwthisawayt 10y agoNot in the rest of America (I.e Latin America) where that would be common and even a term of endearment (gordita). It's common in South Asian cultures as well. To me Americans are focused on being PC while not dealing with the root cause. In the case of "fat" the root problems is that Americans tend to shame & hate those who are fat. It has become a negative stigma, but instead of attacking the root cause we have removed fat as an adjective and think that by removing the hateful term (hateful by usage not by definition) we have solved the problem.