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Adapting to American culture as a Chinese student
- KennyCason 10y ago"Confucian behaviorism is optimized for a Confucian society, and western behaviorism is optimized for western society." This is so true. Speaking Chinese/Japanese on a daily basis and regularly interacting with these two cultures, I would regularly encounter such differences. In Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as "oh, he's just a foreigner", and they hold you to similar standards. I.e. You should be careful how you express your opinion/thoughts to an elder. Similarly, in China, it took me a bit to adjust to how direct Chinese people were about certain topics. For example, they will call you "fat" or call out many personal flaws that we would not do in America. (I know this is counter to the traditional thinking that Chinese are very withdrawn). Similarly, with language, Japanese people will rarely call out any grammar/pronunciation error. Instead, they will ask a question, or give a gesture that you have to read into and infer from. Chinese people will call you out very directly, maybe even embarrass you in front of people to the point where you are too shy to speak. They don't mean it personal, they are just more open to this sort of direct personal criticism. The author also mentioned jokes. I can relate to this, learning the language, let alone the culture is hard enough. Often times, humor is even harder as it requires a deep understanding of both language and culture. Like the other said, the list goes on and on, but these things take so many years to adapt to and overcome. They are huge barriers to cultural integration. I have a lot of respect for foreigners who even attempt to integrate with our culture (and vice versa). p.s. I admit, I have gained some weight, so the criticism is deserved :)
- berneezy3 10y agoThanks for the read, Kenny! I can't imagine the constant transition between western, Chinese, then Japanese culture, though I'm sure it must be very rewarding to you through it all!
- KennyCason 10y agoThanks for the post as well. As you can imagine it takes a lot of effort, but is definitely very rewarding as you gain a lot of valuable world perspective. :)
- gaius 10y agoChinese people will call you out very directly, maybe even embarrass you in front of people to the point where you are too shy to speak I wonder if this is an inherent Chinese thing or a Maoist thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session
- leemailll 10y agoIt is not a Maoist thing. Why you think the two would have any connection?
- gaius 10y agoAre you asking what is the connection between China and Mao?
- shaobo 10y agoHe is asking why are you overthinking this? People in China have put the cultural revolution behind them, it might be helpful for others to do the same when attempting to psychoanalyse present day Chinese behaviours. Your weight, your age and how much you earn are not taboo subjects in China, so people will bring them up in casual conversations.
- VLM 10y agoTo localize the argument, aren't you claiming something like "the civil war ended in 1865 therefore historical black and white issues are no longer relevant in modern America"
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- witty_username 10y agoWell, slavery is mostly no longer a relevant issue in the U.S.
- titanix2 10y ago"Japanese people will rarely call out any grammar/pronunciation error" & "In Japan, if you speak Japanese well, eventually they stop forgiving you as "oh, he's just a foreigner", and they hold you to similar standards." There is also something else I notice: some people will decide they will not understand you because you look/are foreign no matter how hard you try or even if you don't make not many mistakes. There is a famous video about that[1] but this is not limited to Japan, I also saw it in France too with foreigners trying to speak French. Also even in a cultural area there can be wide differences. Almost all Mandarin speakers I interact with (be they Taiwanese, mainlanders or huaqiao) seemed quite happy to talk their language with me. The Japanese not so much. I even sometimes hide my Japanese language ability and play it dumb to fit more in a group. And I plan not to expose a too great ability the day I got it unless necessary precisely too avoid being judged to harsh by the local standards. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80
- ajeet_dhaliwal 10y agoThere's a UK comedy show from a few years ago called Little Britain that has this same thing happening in a recurring skit except with English. There was a British woman who claimed to never understand what an old Indian woman wearing a sari with an Indian accent was saying despite it being quite clear. I wonder whether this is some low level passive aggressive behaviour around the world due annoyance of dealing with a 'foreigner'.
- future1979 10y agoInteresting comment on being called fat. I'm a bit, shall we say, big boned. And I experienced two odd instances where a Chinese person I barely knew casually remarked how fat I was. It was otherwise a pleasant conversation and had me a bit confused. If a stranger said that to you in America, it would certainly be considered mean.
- Symbiote 10y agoYet Americans would tell a stranger that they're tall, or occasionally short.
- ido 10y agoYou can't change how tall or short you are tho, so that's not in any way commenting on your character. In "western" (not just American) cultures, calling somewhat fat is basically calling them gluttonous or lazy (both among the 7 deadly sins).
- throwthisawayt 10y agoNot in the rest of America (I.e Latin America) where that would be common and even a term of endearment (gordita). It's common in South Asian cultures as well. To me Americans are focused on being PC while not dealing with the root cause. In the case of "fat" the root problems is that Americans tend to shame & hate those who are fat. It has become a negative stigma, but instead of attacking the root cause we have removed fat as an adjective and think that by removing the hateful term (hateful by usage not by definition) we have solved the problem.
- throwthisawayt 10y agoNot in the rest of America (I.e Latin America) where that would be common and even a term of endearment (gordita). It's common in South Asian cultures as well. To me Americans are focused on being PC while not dealing with the root cause. In the case of "fat" the root problems is that Americans tend to shame & hate those who are fat. It has become a negative stigma, but instead of attacking the root cause we have removed fat as an adjective and think that by removing the hateful term (hateful by usage not by definition) we have solved the problem.
- hgw2016 10y agoGood analysis, very helpful to both sides. Better understanding will lead to better outcome.
- berneezy3 10y agoThanks Dad! :P
- JumpCrisscross 10y agoI grew up multicultural. Austrian mum, Indian dad; Swissman weekending in Saudi Arabia then moving to Cupertino and studying at ASU. I never belonged in one place and saw that as a weakness. But heterogeneity has strength. It forces you to reconcile values from their primitives. This is tough, but I think it makes you stronger. I remember everyone who shat on me. Swimming against a culture is different from being a contrarian. One is challenging the fundamental premises of a people; the other is innovating within them. The former is biologically designed to hurt. Corollary: call your friends when they are fired. I remember everyone who called me when I quit my first job.The congratulations? Can't remember one. TL;DR Engage where others aren't engaging. At a minimum, you will reap rare cognitive primitives.
- berneezy3 10y agoOP here. The hardships can definitely be turned into a strength, one that is hard for mono-cultured people to grasp. I also had a rough childhood, and I somewhat held a grudge on my parents for it. But now, I feel like I am reaping those cognitive benefits you so speak of :)
- berneezy3 10y agoOP here. This was a pretty personal blog post for me to write, so I hope that it can help you integrating into your new environment.
- kutkloon7 10y agoIt strikes me as really odd that mocking Asians this way is acceptable, while almost any remark about black people can be interpreted as serious racism. In my opinion, people in the US are, without realizing it, very hypocritical and very stuck-up when it comes to racism. If your roommates joke that you will study all day, they are being really rude, but making fun at a cultural difference which is indeed very noticable (in general, Asian students study way more than American students). I don't think this is racism. The basic problem is that people think that being racist is a binary thing that can be triggered by saying something bad about groups of people (nowadays, it doesn't even have to be a racial group anymore). It is a very bad thing that such an undefined thing is taken so seriously (I think the usual definition of 'racism' is 'the idea that people of some racial groups are inferior to people of other racial groups', which would make the only racist thing to literally say that people of some racial groups are inferior to people of other racial groups. I think similar behaviour against other ethnic groups should be treated the same way as this behaviour against Asians (as rude, but not racist). I think it is mainly due to Asian people who deal with mockery very well (as illustrated in this story). In the long run, I think it will only benefit Asians. For example when I am around black friends, I will subconsciensly watch my words and avoid touchy subjects or remarks.
- berneezy3 10y agoI think that points out the whole fallacy of PC culture: that Americans only will be ethnically thoughtful when being pressured into. For better or for worse, Asians get mocked simply because we are conditioned to deal with mockery with silence. I don't know whether we can just attribute that to Asians dealing with it well. But I definitely share your hopes that this quality will benefit us in the long run. One of my white roommates who mocked me in the story was actually a hardcore Bernie supporter who stood up for black culture at the drop of a dime, so I found it curious that he viewed people of my culture so negatively.
- XorNot 10y agoIsn't this just the perceived difference in source? i.e. mocking someone for what you believe is a positive character trait is generally seen as okay (the aforementioned "study a lot"). Another vein this happens in is with regards to Germans ("being precise"). I don't think you could say that there's a similar vein of humor with African-American culture that's developed, and that's principally historical: America's slave holding history is still an open-wound today, and its social concepts around African-Americans were widely based on making sure they were viewed as lesser. EDIT: This isn't to say either is ultimately good. There's a pretty important difference between occasional good humor that transitions into something of more malevolent intent, but how people perceive them appropriateness very much matters.
- codecamper 10y agoDon't adapt. Best part of the US for me is all the other cultures living in it. Pho soup, Ethiopian pancakes, Burmese cuisine. Please don't adapt.
- Gigablah 10y agoAdapting doesn't necessarily mean assimilating -- it can be "code-switching" in a cultural sense.
- mac01021 10y agoTo some extent, though, a culture is it's aversions. If your birth culture demands intolerance of some kind of behavior, you can't adapt without losing some of that culture. And to what code do you switch when people of conflicting cultures are present in the same room with you?
- runn1ng 10y ago"Culture" goes way, way beyond "interesting food".
- mikekchar 10y agoGrowing up in Canada I was always a big fan of multi-culturalism. However, I was very surprised at how much I have enjoyed mono-culturalism since I've moved to Japan (lived here about 8 years now). As an immigrant, I have also chosen to try to join my adopted culture. I spend a great deal of time studying cultural practices. I wear traditional Japanese clothing most of the time in the summer (western clothes are better suited for winter, I have to say). I make traditional Japanese preserves, and live a traditional Japanese lifestyle (as much as my Japanese wife will let me, anyway...). There are people here who are similarly interested in American culture. They want to learn about it and practice it and live it. My Canadian background makes me feel embarrassed to say it, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. While being able to experience outside cultures inside your own country is wonderful, also make sure to experience what makes your country great. Keep your culture and traditions alive, because they are important. There will be people from other countries who want to participate in that experience. Be sure to welcome them as well.
- nraynaud 10y agoMy GF works with foreign students at ASU. From what I gather there (but it might be a particularity of such large university) if you speak mandarin or cantonese, you will have staff support in your own langage to help with integration, and thousands of events every year planned to mix with other people. It should be noted that Americans tend to shun the foreign student events, but at least you'll mingle with people form other countries, and English and American cultures will be your common ground.
- vijucat 10y agoAs an aside, I find Quora much easier to read with a sans-serif font: https://imgur.com/jdu9fw4 https://imgur.com/jdu9fw4 I use the Stylish Chrome extension with this override for Quora to achieve this: html,body,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6,.box_feed,.box_feed div,p,.link.selected,blockquote { font-family:"Tahoma", Sans-serif; } Stylish: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylish/fjnbnpbmkenffdnngjfgmeleoegfcffe?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylish/fjnbnpbmke...
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- paradite 10y agoRelated discussions on "Adapting to German culture as a Chinese student": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385
- berneezy3 10y agoGreat resource!
- wcummings 10y agoA lot of the stuff in the first response feels like it could be easily taught (eye contact, deodorant, basic smalltalk), do universities offer some kind of class or workshop to help acclimate people?
- russdill 10y agoHere's the frustrating thing. You could have 9 out of 10 students who fit in and conform to social norms. But that one student who doesn't is the one that will always stick out in people's mind and by which they judge the other 9.
- berneezy3 10y agoOP here. That is a business opportunity I have pondered a lot about... Do you think its a viable idea?
- ht_th 10y agoNo (and yes). I think that if foreigners are motivated to integrate in the local society and culture, they will find a way to do fine. If that motivation isn't there, I doubt any of these cultural courses and workshops will help much. On the other hand, I do think many if not all people do know that integrating is hard, so a course/workshop/self-help book/whatever will be attractive. Therefore, yes, here lies a business opportunity.
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- peteretep 10y ago> as being quiet and > reserved in the public This guy comes from a China that's aspirational rather than real
- chillacy 10y agoThe Chinese grad students are definitely a different crowd than the undergrad students.
- known 10y agoCheck http://www.xenophobes.com/the-Americans/ http://www.xenophobes.com/the-Americans/
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- bane 10y agoThis really reminds me of this post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385
- aisofteng 10y agoThe main problem I've had with Chinese students is rampant cheating and lying, including with help from Chinese professors. I dated a Chinese girl in my PhD program for a bit and she showed me it all first hand, including a Chinese professor giving exams to his Chinese students ahead of time. She giggled about it and didn't see a problem; to her, it was just an easy way to get ahead. During undergraduate, I participated in international competitions twice, both times with a Chinese girl on the team I led and who both times tried to collude with competing teams in China (who were colluding with each other) until I yelled at her to either stop or get out of the room and let the rest of the team finish without her. I've seen this in two out of two institutions, and have had this confirmed by friends at other schools. In the first big boy job I got, we hired a Chinese guy who ended up having lied on his resume about being able to code. At my last position, I've admonished the Chinese guy on my team at least once for copy pasting others' code into PRs without understanding it (which would never even occur to me to do because it is so obviously wrong), and have once caught flat out lying about having done something, apparently because he thought I wouldn't check his work. All of these cases have been with people who went to high school or undergrad in China. The ones I've met who grew up here seem to be better about it. So, personally, I look down on what I've seen of Chinese culture for this reason. Not people - culture; when I work with someone that grew up in China, I check for cheating and lies, because of what I've seen of the culture. With people that grew up outside China, I don't worry as much. I expect I'll get a negative response to this, and I don't care. I'm criticizing a culture, not a race, and these are my life experiences with that culture. It's possible I've just had an extremely unlikely series of uncounters, but, tautologically, that is extremely unlikely.
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- meric 10y agoI acknowledge your observations and would like to note the culture between Chinese students in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam are all different and warn you against pinning Chinese culture with cheating. I imagine the behaviour you are talking about is more unthinkable to Singaporean Chinese than even to you yourself for example.
- anon1094 10y agoThe Japanese have the word Gaikokujin (Foreigner) but it doesn't really mean that. It really only applies to whites or blacks. If you're American of Oriental ancestry they dont really see you as gaikokujin. Also, you get treated way differently. I'm a Hispanic American so I mostly got the gaikokujin treatment but my friends of Chinese ancestry got something different when we were studying in Japan for 2 years.
- albertgao 10y agoDidn’t read the content from the link, only the comments here, already knew the topic. As a native Chinese, I should say that this fraud culture is a common sense in China since the government itself is a fraud, so people living in the country will get used to it and finally adopt it. Because every time you wanna strive hard to get something, you will find the fraud is taking the “shortcuts” and making better progress than you. Eventually, you will be part of the culture and fraud in a daily basis, which means, when you want to achieve something, you will always think of this kind of “shortcuts” at the first place. And, this is the 2nd main reason why so many middle class people want to immigrant besides the environment crisis. The good part of hunman being is something nature borning. If you can’t change it, you can change yourself. Ye, but some people will still be influenced by the old habit. That’s a shame.
- hgw2016 10y agoAgreed, I can testify to this observation.
- BrianMickeyD 10y agoChinese are so successful in the US!