3 ms·

I get this argument, but couldn't you say Apple gives the customer the best of both worlds? Web & HTML 5 support: developers can make or do anything they want

by cjoh 16y ago

I get this argument, but couldn't you say Apple gives the customer the best of both worlds? Web & HTML 5 support: developers can make or do anything they want to on the platform. App Store: Cultivated catalog of high quality apps for customers. At the end of the day, we don't need PhoneGaps or Titaniums-- we need MobileSafari to have the same hooks into the hardware (gps, compass, accelerometer, camera, etc) as Cocoa Touch. Then it's a level playing field. If you're saying that that, too, ought to be in the App Store, well-- then what you're really arguing for isn't technology but that the App Store is a better distribution channel to mobile devices than the Web. It certainly is-- I have millions of competitors for the word "Congress" on Google, and about 12 in the App Store. To solve the distribution channel problem, I don't understand why some enterprising YC person doesn't simply start making a web App Store app for the iPhone that allows people to sell web applications to iPhone users, handle fulfillment just like the App Store does, and handle curation, just like the App Store does. There's money to be made here.

nailer 16y ago
We're arguing for Apple to make the web app store. Clearly the current situation of open standards apps not being monetizable is not the best of both worlds.
- pohl 16y ago
  But how is this different from the monetizibility of web-apps on the existing web? And don't forget - even if Apple were to acquiesce and make an app store for web apps, there would still be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The claim would be that Apple is trying to take away URL-addressibility from the web. Heck, people already complain about this just for Objective-C Apps! Exhibit A: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=945443 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=945443
joshwa 16y ago
What I'm arguing for is not technology (which already exists), but technology support in the form of official frameworks, which subverts the "3rd party middleware" argument, and for equal access to distribution and payment channels. I have no motivation to create iPhone web apps if I can't easily get them in front of iPhone users monetize them. A few other points: - MobileSafari already has access to many hardware functions: gps, accelerometer, maybe compass? There are some great iTunes U videos on this if you're a member of the iPhone dev program. Obviously it would be good to have access to all the hardware features. - Every time I hear about the App Store being "curated" for "high quality" I choke a little (iFart?). There's no reason why html5 apps in the app store wouldn't go through the same review process. - The Google results for "congress" have no relationship whatsoever to "congress" in the App Store. Web pages != web applications. "I don't understand why some enterprising YC person doesn't simply start making a web App Store app for the iPhone that allows people to sell web applications to iPhone users, handle fulfillment just like the App Store does, and handle curation, just like the App Store does." Not a bad idea, in fact. A few big hurdles, though: 1) you can't install apps on the iPhone except via the App Store (or asking a mobilesafari user to create a home screen icon themselves) 2) payment system inertia-- who's going to sign up for another micropayment account when they're already set up with Apple? EDIT: while I was writing this, nailer said it better and more succinctly.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  I don't see any reason why HTML5/Javascript apps couldn't be in the App Store as some sort of "featured" section, with a means to install them as icons on the home screen, except that Apple would be diluting the market for the native apps. That's not in the developer's interest, but it might well be in Apple's interest to have more decent free stuff on the iPhone.
  - joshwa 16y ago
    who said anything about free? my point is that mobile web apps have no way to monetize, and that could be fixed by letting web apps in the app store, via a native bridge.
- cjoh 16y ago
  So I think we're in (nailer) agreement, though I don't see why anybody has to wait on Apple to make a web app store. I think there's money to be made even with all the marketing hurdles. I want to explain myself in regards to your response here: "- The Google results for "congress" have no relationship whatsoever to "congress" in the App Store. Web pages != web applications." In a lot of cases this is true. But I, for instance, make web apps about members of congress. My mission is to get people information about members of congress wherever they're at. In order for those web apps to get discovered, I have to rely on Google for people to discover them (as well as good marketing and PR and all sorts of other things). I'm simply point out that the App Store is, in fact, a less competitive environment than the web for the dissemination of information, which a lot of web applications, and iphone applications do. Type "Weather" into the App Store, and there's a few hundred applications. Type it into google? 319,000,000. I'd wager to say that 99% of "Weather" applications on the iphone are about the dissemination of weather information. So while, yes, web pages != web applications, many web applications are about the aggregation and dissemination of information. And search-- whether it be through Google or through the App Store-- is an important factor to their discovery and use. Being in the "top 25" apps for a search result in the App store is valuable, just like being in the top of Google search results. And right now, the App Store is far less competitive than Google search results.

by cjoh 16y ago

nailer 16y ago

We're arguing for Apple to make the web app store. Clearly the current situation of open standards apps not being monetizable is not the best of both worlds.

pohl 16y ago
But how is this different from the monetizibility of web-apps on the existing web? And don't forget - even if Apple were to acquiesce and make an app store for web apps, there would still be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The claim would be that Apple is trying to take away URL-addressibility from the web. Heck, people already complain about this just for Objective-C Apps! Exhibit A: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=945443 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=945443

joshwa 16y ago

What I'm arguing for is not technology (which already exists), but technology support in the form of official frameworks, which subverts the "3rd party middleware" argument, and for equal access to distribution and payment channels. I have no motivation to create iPhone web apps if I can't easily get them in front of iPhone users monetize them. A few other points: - MobileSafari already has access to many hardware functions: gps, accelerometer, maybe compass? There are some great iTunes U videos on this if you're a member of the iPhone dev program. Obviously it would be good to have access to all the hardware features. - Every time I hear about the App Store being "curated" for "high quality" I choke a little (iFart?). There's no reason why html5 apps in the app store wouldn't go through the same review process. - The Google results for "congress" have no relationship whatsoever to "congress" in the App Store. Web pages != web applications. "I don't understand why some enterprising YC person doesn't simply start making a web App Store app for the iPhone that allows people to sell web applications to iPhone users, handle fulfillment just like the App Store does, and handle curation, just like the App Store does." Not a bad idea, in fact. A few big hurdles, though: 1) you can't install apps on the iPhone except via the App Store (or asking a mobilesafari user to create a home screen icon themselves) 2) payment system inertia-- who's going to sign up for another micropayment account when they're already set up with Apple? EDIT: while I was writing this, nailer said it better and more succinctly.

stcredzero 16y ago
I don't see any reason why HTML5/Javascript apps couldn't be in the App Store as some sort of "featured" section, with a means to install them as icons on the home screen, except that Apple would be diluting the market for the native apps. That's not in the developer's interest, but it might well be in Apple's interest to have more decent free stuff on the iPhone.
- joshwa 16y ago
  who said anything about free? my point is that mobile web apps have no way to monetize, and that could be fixed by letting web apps in the app store, via a native bridge.
cjoh 16y ago
So I think we're in (nailer) agreement, though I don't see why anybody has to wait on Apple to make a web app store. I think there's money to be made even with all the marketing hurdles. I want to explain myself in regards to your response here: "- The Google results for "congress" have no relationship whatsoever to "congress" in the App Store. Web pages != web applications." In a lot of cases this is true. But I, for instance, make web apps about members of congress. My mission is to get people information about members of congress wherever they're at. In order for those web apps to get discovered, I have to rely on Google for people to discover them (as well as good marketing and PR and all sorts of other things). I'm simply point out that the App Store is, in fact, a less competitive environment than the web for the dissemination of information, which a lot of web applications, and iphone applications do. Type "Weather" into the App Store, and there's a few hundred applications. Type it into google? 319,000,000. I'd wager to say that 99% of "Weather" applications on the iphone are about the dissemination of weather information. So while, yes, web pages != web applications, many web applications are about the aggregation and dissemination of information. And search-- whether it be through Google or through the App Store-- is an important factor to their discovery and use. Being in the "top 25" apps for a search result in the App store is valuable, just like being in the top of Google search results. And right now, the App Store is far less competitive than Google search results.