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Trying to compare a mature, designed from scratch, battle-tested enterprise solution that powers Eriksson's switches with v8 (which is so good to be true) + lib

by c00p3r 16y ago

Trying to compare a mature, designed from scratch, battle-tested enterprise solution that powers Eriksson's switches with v8 (which is so good to be true) + libevent? Something wrong with HN.

davidw 16y ago
They get used for some of the same things, so it makes sense to compare them, just as we might compare Java (which also comes from a big company) web stuff with Ruby on Rails. Why don't you point out actual problems in the comparison rather than whine? Also, calling Erlang "designed from scratch" is a bit odd given that it actually evolved out of some Prolog system they'd built, something that is quite visible in the syntax.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  By "designed from scratch", he/she probably means that Erlang's asynchrony is thoroughly integrated, while node.js tries to retrofit such a model onto JS, and still has operations that will cause the whole system to block. It stopped mattering that Erlang evolved from a Prolog prototype when it ceased running on top of SICStus's IO primitives. (FWIW, Prolog is a really cool language, particularly for prototyping. Event-driven, IO-heavy stuff is just not its strong point. The pattern matching stuff in Erlang comes straight from Prolog, though.)
swannodette 16y ago
I think the article is trying to point out that for simpler problems you no longer have to immediately reach for something as robust as Erlang, Node.js might do. In my mind this is a good thing because more people will realize some problems are too painful to solve in Node.js and they will take a hard look at Erlang. Or they'll get sick of the convoluted syntax hoop-jumping and they'll take a hard look at a Lisp. I find JavaScript beautiful in a sense because in a very roundabout way it's pulling people towards more advanced PLs. Pushing a simple solution to its limits is how people evolve to the next thing.
- KirinDave 16y ago
  I think it's sad that people are so afraid of trying new languages and investing a bit of their time diversifying that Node.js looks like a viable alternative to Erlang, ever. It's the ultimate example of the “When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail” phenomenon.
  - davidw 16y ago
    From where I'm sitting, node.js looks like a great solution for fast, simple, and small web systems, whereas the comparable Erlang systems are more of a pain in the ass to get set up and use. So it is certainly a viable alternative. Is it the best alternative? Erlang, as the article states, has some good things going for it; it's better than anything else that I know of for several categories of tasks. The problem is that other things are catching up, and while they may not be "as good", people can and will pick them if they are "good enough" and have other qualities that make them a good choice, such as being easier to learn. Your comment to me comes across along the same lines of the people thinking digital photography would never surpass the quality of regular film. Maybe node.js won't be the one to catch up and pass Erlang, but my gut feeling is that something will. Scala, maybe?
    - KirinDave 16y ago
      > Your comment to me comes across along the same lines of the people thinking digital photography would never surpass the quality of regular film. Maybe node.js won't be the one to catch up and pass Erlang, but my gut feeling is that something will. Scala, maybe? At least Scala is in a similar category. Node.js is basically a bolt-on solution. It doesn't even actually have a comparable threading model, it just has a comfortably familiar one.
      - davidw 16y ago
        I think it's dangerous to ignore "toys", as time and time again they've proven quite capable of taking on superior solutions, and winning, because of other advantages.

by c00p3r 16y ago

Trying to compare a mature, designed from scratch, battle-tested enterprise solution that powers Eriksson's switches with v8 (which is so good to be true) + libevent? Something wrong with HN.

davidw 16y ago

They get used for some of the same things, so it makes sense to compare them, just as we might compare Java (which also comes from a big company) web stuff with Ruby on Rails. Why don't you point out actual problems in the comparison rather than whine? Also, calling Erlang "designed from scratch" is a bit odd given that it actually evolved out of some Prolog system they'd built, something that is quite visible in the syntax.

silentbicycle 16y ago
By "designed from scratch", he/she probably means that Erlang's asynchrony is thoroughly integrated, while node.js tries to retrofit such a model onto JS, and still has operations that will cause the whole system to block. It stopped mattering that Erlang evolved from a Prolog prototype when it ceased running on top of SICStus's IO primitives. (FWIW, Prolog is a really cool language, particularly for prototyping. Event-driven, IO-heavy stuff is just not its strong point. The pattern matching stuff in Erlang comes straight from Prolog, though.)

swannodette 16y ago

I think the article is trying to point out that for simpler problems you no longer have to immediately reach for something as robust as Erlang, Node.js might do. In my mind this is a good thing because more people will realize some problems are too painful to solve in Node.js and they will take a hard look at Erlang. Or they'll get sick of the convoluted syntax hoop-jumping and they'll take a hard look at a Lisp. I find JavaScript beautiful in a sense because in a very roundabout way it's pulling people towards more advanced PLs. Pushing a simple solution to its limits is how people evolve to the next thing.

KirinDave 16y ago
I think it's sad that people are so afraid of trying new languages and investing a bit of their time diversifying that Node.js looks like a viable alternative to Erlang, ever. It's the ultimate example of the “When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail” phenomenon.
- davidw 16y ago
  From where I'm sitting, node.js looks like a great solution for fast, simple, and small web systems, whereas the comparable Erlang systems are more of a pain in the ass to get set up and use. So it is certainly a viable alternative. Is it the best alternative? Erlang, as the article states, has some good things going for it; it's better than anything else that I know of for several categories of tasks. The problem is that other things are catching up, and while they may not be "as good", people can and will pick them if they are "good enough" and have other qualities that make them a good choice, such as being easier to learn. Your comment to me comes across along the same lines of the people thinking digital photography would never surpass the quality of regular film. Maybe node.js won't be the one to catch up and pass Erlang, but my gut feeling is that something will. Scala, maybe?
  - KirinDave 16y ago
    > Your comment to me comes across along the same lines of the people thinking digital photography would never surpass the quality of regular film. Maybe node.js won't be the one to catch up and pass Erlang, but my gut feeling is that something will. Scala, maybe? At least Scala is in a similar category. Node.js is basically a bolt-on solution. It doesn't even actually have a comparable threading model, it just has a comfortably familiar one.
    - davidw 16y ago
      I think it's dangerous to ignore "toys", as time and time again they've proven quite capable of taking on superior solutions, and winning, because of other advantages.