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I don't understand why you reacted so strongly to the roll over argument. Jobs didn't state roll overs as the raison d'etre for not including Flash, he simply u

by yan 16y ago

I don't understand why you reacted so strongly to the roll over argument. Jobs didn't state roll overs as the raison d'etre for not including Flash, he simply used it as yet another example why the tools and, more importantly, thinking of the previous generation of web developers will not advance the platform forward. (As an example, I have been frustrated at some sites reliance of roll overs when using my iPhone). The battery life argument is also stronger than you make it seem. When users turn on push notifications, the phone warns you of a reduced battery life (also, when enabling 3G) and is usually not toggled by the majority of the population. Flash is much more insidious; it will live in the browser and to the average user, will just be a part of normal browsing. Ditto for watching movies over flash.

ThomPete 16y ago
The touch argument just isn't valid. What exactly is it that can't be done with flash just because it's a touch environment. Flash don't care about what the input is. It will listen for what you ask it to listen to. Regarding battery life And why couldn't the phone warn you off reduced battery life if you turn on flash? You simply make it an opt in, the first time someone is running flash you overlay a warning saying that flash reduces battery life and you can turn that warning off. Its simple interaction design, apple are masters at that. None of the problems stated can't be solved or are not already there with regular html (rollovers on plenty of normal html sites)
- yan 16y ago
  These are all problems that could be solved, this isn't the argument. The argument here is solving them is not in everyone's best interest and is artificially keeping the platform in the past. edit: why are you so angry? Apple are providing a beautiful product at a great price to the public. If it doesn't have a feature you want, buy another product that supports it. I never understood being angry at a company because of not putting effort into what you think they should be putting effort into.
  - ThomPete 16y ago
    What do you mean with in everyone's best interest? Everyone includes the millions of flash sites and flash developers out there that do fantastic work. Flash isn't a feature it's as ingrained a part of the web as HTML is and surely much more than HTML5. I like apples products I fully accept that they don't want to put flash on there even though I disagree. But his answer isn't an answer, it's not a counter argument as many of those problems he states aren't really problems that are flash related.
wfarr 16y ago
"I don't understand why you reacted so strongly to the roll over argument. Jobs didn't state roll overs as the raison d'etre for not including Flash." This is why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
- ThomPete 16y ago
  "Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover." Flash don't care. You are not forced to use rollovers in flash you can but you are not forced to do it. Drag and drop is a historical mouse feature. You have that on the iPad too. So apples touch is not more revolutionary than it still uses these. Every other mouse metaphor is in use besides rollover.
  - wfarr 16y ago
    No — they don't have to use rollover. But the fact of the matter is, particularly with games but also to some extent websites (navigation), that many (perhaps the majority) do. Apple is speaking about the state of things as they are, not how they could possibly be if people so chose for them to be that way.
    - ThomPete 16y ago
      But that is true for so many HTML/js sites too and nothing absolutely nothing prohibits people from playing flash games with a touch interface. Most flash games are point and click

by yan 16y ago

ThomPete 16y ago

The touch argument just isn't valid. What exactly is it that can't be done with flash just because it's a touch environment. Flash don't care about what the input is. It will listen for what you ask it to listen to. Regarding battery life And why couldn't the phone warn you off reduced battery life if you turn on flash? You simply make it an opt in, the first time someone is running flash you overlay a warning saying that flash reduces battery life and you can turn that warning off. Its simple interaction design, apple are masters at that. None of the problems stated can't be solved or are not already there with regular html (rollovers on plenty of normal html sites)

yan 16y ago
These are all problems that could be solved, this isn't the argument. The argument here is solving them is not in everyone's best interest and is artificially keeping the platform in the past. edit: why are you so angry? Apple are providing a beautiful product at a great price to the public. If it doesn't have a feature you want, buy another product that supports it. I never understood being angry at a company because of not putting effort into what you think they should be putting effort into.
- ThomPete 16y ago
  What do you mean with in everyone's best interest? Everyone includes the millions of flash sites and flash developers out there that do fantastic work. Flash isn't a feature it's as ingrained a part of the web as HTML is and surely much more than HTML5. I like apples products I fully accept that they don't want to put flash on there even though I disagree. But his answer isn't an answer, it's not a counter argument as many of those problems he states aren't really problems that are flash related.

wfarr 16y ago

"I don't understand why you reacted so strongly to the roll over argument. Jobs didn't state roll overs as the raison d'etre for not including Flash." This is why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

ThomPete 16y ago
"Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover." Flash don't care. You are not forced to use rollovers in flash you can but you are not forced to do it. Drag and drop is a historical mouse feature. You have that on the iPad too. So apples touch is not more revolutionary than it still uses these. Every other mouse metaphor is in use besides rollover.
- wfarr 16y ago
  No — they don't have to use rollover. But the fact of the matter is, particularly with games but also to some extent websites (navigation), that many (perhaps the majority) do. Apple is speaking about the state of things as they are, not how they could possibly be if people so chose for them to be that way.
  - ThomPete 16y ago
    But that is true for so many HTML/js sites too and nothing absolutely nothing prohibits people from playing flash games with a touch interface. Most flash games are point and click