4 ms·

I agree that Fidel Castro made many mistakes and is responsible for many atrocities. But the plight of Cuba is not his doing alone. He leaves behind a Cuba tha

by sspiff 10y ago

I agree that Fidel Castro made many mistakes and is responsible for many atrocities. But the plight of Cuba is not his doing alone. He leaves behind a Cuba that was embargoed by the US, their closest and largest trade partner after the US had staged a failed invasion to overthrow the government. This forced them into the Soviet sphere of influence for supplies and trade. Then, when the Soviet Union collapsed at the end of the cold war, it could no longer support Cuba. The island nation was driven further into poverty and essential goods like food and medicine became scarce. And what did the US do at that point? Did they reopen diplomatic relations and try to find some rapprochement after an era of high tensions? No. Instead they decided that now was an excellent time to extend their embargo to include food and medicine as well, which were up to that point exempt from the trade ban. To point to a single man and his inner circle as the sole cause for the sad state Cuba is in today is just as absurd as to deny the wrongs of the Castro regime, nor did he only do bad things for the Cuban people. The "trope" of education and healthcare being available to all is not some straw man. It is a legitimate achievement, and one that many nations the world around have not been able to match, no matter their affluence.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
cmbailey 10y ago
>I agree that Fidel Castro made many mistakes and is responsible for many atrocities. But the plight of Cuba is not his doing alone. In American English, the phrase, "He murdered thousands," can't be followed by the word "but..."
- andrepd 10y ago
  Obama didn't murder thousands? Yet I hear good things about him. FDR? Any US president basically? The people responsible for staging coups abroad to replace democratically elected leaders, install sympathetic dictators and overall fuck up life in a region for 50 years? Yet I hear good things about them too. Why can't the same be applied to Fidel? He committed atrocities and he did good for the country. And indeed much of the suffering (the "millions" not the "thousands") was directly caused by US actions, so don't come with the holier than thou.
  - marknutter 10y ago
    FDR and Obama murdered thousands of their own citizens? Jeeze, I need to brush up on my history...
    - sspiff 10y ago
      Which nation a person belongs to does not decide his or her worth.
  - wooter 10y ago
    I'm a cuban american and I don't see how people don't understand the most obvious viewpoint. You can condemn both the evil actions by the US and by Fidel. The fact that they've both committed atrocities doesn't mean that we can't criticize either harshly, it means that we MUST criticize BOTH. I hate the whitewashing of Obama's wars. Its a BIG reason I was against Hillary (and pro Gary Johnson). The left is spineless and completely abandons the anti-war rhetoric when its their team. AND I hate the apologism I'm hearing about Castro. He was an evil, hateful, murderous, greedy, lying dictator.
    - celticninja 10y ago
      Greedy? I have not really heard of him siphoning of money like other dictators but would happily read any info you have on this sort of behaviour.
    - yarou 10y ago
      Wholeheartedly agree with you. I consider myself to be on the left, in the classical sense, but the political discourse of the United States does not tolerate multi-faceted and nuanced opinions about the issues. The groupthink is prevalent on both sides of the aisle - you're either on my team or you're on the other. What sucks is when you're ostracized from both.
  - laura2013 10y ago
    Many highly educated professionals in Cuba live in poverty while the top ranking officials live lavishly. The Castro family takes vacations abroad, aboard fancy yachts in fancy hotels while regular citizens are not allowed to leave the island and until recently not even allowed to stay in Cuban hotels (i say recently because that was the case when i lived there and i'm not 100% sure that's changed). There's no good he did that equates or overcompensates the harm to the general population.
- makmanalp 10y ago
  > In American English, the phrase, "He murdered thousands," can't be followed by the word "but..." Then I hope you've been holding up to the same standard almost every American leader from the latter half of the 20th century till now - whether through political interference, violent regime change to authoritarian leaders, proxy wars, drone strikes or straight up war without a cause. The truth is that in most people and things, we're inclined to overlook the good for the bad or the bad for the good, depending on our preconceived opinions. Most leaders - especially revolutionary ones - are this, but taken to the extreme, often liberating an entire populace while oppressing another. Which is why they often are notable for both, but more notable for one than the other depending on whether the person you're talking to suffered or prospered under their rule. We shouldn't be afraid to say in the same breath that a person increased welfare and happiness for some and yet decreased it for others, stood up to imperialism and yet also was the pawn of larger global interests, was persecuted even while he persecuted others, was demonized even while he demonized others, was the target of many assassinations even while he ordered the murder of others, was spread lies and misinformation about even while he spread lies and misinformation about others. All of this happened together. This doesn't mean it's balanced one way or another, or that one makes up for the other at all. This isn't excusing murder and atrocity - it's giving credence to the complexity of events. It's understanding how the life you live and the limited environment you live it in is very different from the experiences of others, and that people's realities, cares and worries are shaped more by things near them and less by things that don't affect them. It's a way towards understanding why others hold they opinions they do, and also a gateway to criticizing our own leaders and idols in the same way. Leaders should not be deified or demonized, but understood as a whole, wether to understand what to repeat and look up to or understand what never to allow to happen again.
rgbrenner 10y ago
You're forgetting some details there. In the 1920s, Cuba was a big producer of sugar, and their largest trading partner was the US. US companies owned 60% of the sugar production. But during the great depression, the US introduced tariffs on a wide range of goods (from everywhere), and the Cuban sugar industry collapsed. Then when Fidel came to power one of the things he promised was to reduce the reliance on US trade. And he nationalized all of the private property and assets belonging to American individuals and companies. And in response to that, the embargo was introduced. AND THEN there was the Bay of Pigs. So lets not pretend the embargo is what destroyed US Cuban trade. Fidel did that all by himself, without the help of the embargo. Also, the US didn't push Cuba into the Soviet sphere.. Fidel already had close tied to the Soviets before the embargo. It was one of the reasons for putting the embargo in place.
- dublinben 10y ago
  From your description, it actually sounds like the US and its tariffs were responsible for the collapse of the Cuban economy. That happened decades before Castro came into power.
  - rgbrenner 10y ago
    The tariffs were not Cuba specific. They were part of the US withdraw from the world during that period. Cuba was affected, as were many countries. There's a reason it's called the Great Depression. Keep in mind the Great Depression was worldwide, not just the US. It affected many countries, including those who did not trade with the US. And yes, this happened decades before.. but it was one of the reasons Fidel came to power. In other words, there was already a strong anti-US sentiment in Cuba because of this and the forced military leases (which date back to the 1800s).
- 1_2__3 10y ago
  You just said the US caused the sugar trade to collapse and then said Castro destroyed trade himself. Are you referring to trade besides sugar? Why WOULDNT Cuba decide (realize) that they need to protect themselves from the US?

by sspiff 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

cmbailey 10y ago

>I agree that Fidel Castro made many mistakes and is responsible for many atrocities. But the plight of Cuba is not his doing alone. In American English, the phrase, "He murdered thousands," can't be followed by the word "but..."

andrepd 10y ago
Obama didn't murder thousands? Yet I hear good things about him. FDR? Any US president basically? The people responsible for staging coups abroad to replace democratically elected leaders, install sympathetic dictators and overall fuck up life in a region for 50 years? Yet I hear good things about them too. Why can't the same be applied to Fidel? He committed atrocities and he did good for the country. And indeed much of the suffering (the "millions" not the "thousands") was directly caused by US actions, so don't come with the holier than thou.
- marknutter 10y ago
  FDR and Obama murdered thousands of their own citizens? Jeeze, I need to brush up on my history...
  - sspiff 10y ago
    Which nation a person belongs to does not decide his or her worth.
- wooter 10y ago
  I'm a cuban american and I don't see how people don't understand the most obvious viewpoint. You can condemn both the evil actions by the US and by Fidel. The fact that they've both committed atrocities doesn't mean that we can't criticize either harshly, it means that we MUST criticize BOTH. I hate the whitewashing of Obama's wars. Its a BIG reason I was against Hillary (and pro Gary Johnson). The left is spineless and completely abandons the anti-war rhetoric when its their team. AND I hate the apologism I'm hearing about Castro. He was an evil, hateful, murderous, greedy, lying dictator.
  - celticninja 10y ago
    Greedy? I have not really heard of him siphoning of money like other dictators but would happily read any info you have on this sort of behaviour.
  - yarou 10y ago
    Wholeheartedly agree with you. I consider myself to be on the left, in the classical sense, but the political discourse of the United States does not tolerate multi-faceted and nuanced opinions about the issues. The groupthink is prevalent on both sides of the aisle - you're either on my team or you're on the other. What sucks is when you're ostracized from both.
- laura2013 10y ago
  Many highly educated professionals in Cuba live in poverty while the top ranking officials live lavishly. The Castro family takes vacations abroad, aboard fancy yachts in fancy hotels while regular citizens are not allowed to leave the island and until recently not even allowed to stay in Cuban hotels (i say recently because that was the case when i lived there and i'm not 100% sure that's changed). There's no good he did that equates or overcompensates the harm to the general population.
makmanalp 10y ago
> In American English, the phrase, "He murdered thousands," can't be followed by the word "but..." Then I hope you've been holding up to the same standard almost every American leader from the latter half of the 20th century till now - whether through political interference, violent regime change to authoritarian leaders, proxy wars, drone strikes or straight up war without a cause. The truth is that in most people and things, we're inclined to overlook the good for the bad or the bad for the good, depending on our preconceived opinions. Most leaders - especially revolutionary ones - are this, but taken to the extreme, often liberating an entire populace while oppressing another. Which is why they often are notable for both, but more notable for one than the other depending on whether the person you're talking to suffered or prospered under their rule. We shouldn't be afraid to say in the same breath that a person increased welfare and happiness for some and yet decreased it for others, stood up to imperialism and yet also was the pawn of larger global interests, was persecuted even while he persecuted others, was demonized even while he demonized others, was the target of many assassinations even while he ordered the murder of others, was spread lies and misinformation about even while he spread lies and misinformation about others. All of this happened together. This doesn't mean it's balanced one way or another, or that one makes up for the other at all. This isn't excusing murder and atrocity - it's giving credence to the complexity of events. It's understanding how the life you live and the limited environment you live it in is very different from the experiences of others, and that people's realities, cares and worries are shaped more by things near them and less by things that don't affect them. It's a way towards understanding why others hold they opinions they do, and also a gateway to criticizing our own leaders and idols in the same way. Leaders should not be deified or demonized, but understood as a whole, wether to understand what to repeat and look up to or understand what never to allow to happen again.

rgbrenner 10y ago

You're forgetting some details there. In the 1920s, Cuba was a big producer of sugar, and their largest trading partner was the US. US companies owned 60% of the sugar production. But during the great depression, the US introduced tariffs on a wide range of goods (from everywhere), and the Cuban sugar industry collapsed. Then when Fidel came to power one of the things he promised was to reduce the reliance on US trade. And he nationalized all of the private property and assets belonging to American individuals and companies. And in response to that, the embargo was introduced. AND THEN there was the Bay of Pigs. So lets not pretend the embargo is what destroyed US Cuban trade. Fidel did that all by himself, without the help of the embargo. Also, the US didn't push Cuba into the Soviet sphere.. Fidel already had close tied to the Soviets before the embargo. It was one of the reasons for putting the embargo in place.

dublinben 10y ago
From your description, it actually sounds like the US and its tariffs were responsible for the collapse of the Cuban economy. That happened decades before Castro came into power.
- rgbrenner 10y ago
  The tariffs were not Cuba specific. They were part of the US withdraw from the world during that period. Cuba was affected, as were many countries. There's a reason it's called the Great Depression. Keep in mind the Great Depression was worldwide, not just the US. It affected many countries, including those who did not trade with the US. And yes, this happened decades before.. but it was one of the reasons Fidel came to power. In other words, there was already a strong anti-US sentiment in Cuba because of this and the forced military leases (which date back to the 1800s).
1_2__3 10y ago
You just said the US caused the sugar trade to collapse and then said Castro destroyed trade himself. Are you referring to trade besides sugar? Why WOULDNT Cuba decide (realize) that they need to protect themselves from the US?