10 ms·

Hey, you know that lazy generation of kids coming through college right now without any experience actually holding a job? What if, bear with me here, what if,

Hey, you know that lazy generation of kids coming through college right now without any experience actually holding a job? What if, bear with me here, what if, instead of illegal immigrants from all over the world who can work for less than minimum wage (because they're already breaking the law by working here in the first place), what if instead of illegal immigrants taking those jobs, American youth actually held jobs and got experience working? Wouldn't that be nuts? Oh you probably think Americans don't want those jobs, right? They don't. At least, not for less than minimum wage, because that's illegal and nobody wants to have that on their record. But teenagers definitely want money. Everybody does. Imagine a world where there is ZERO illegal immigration to the US. Teenagers actually might learn the value of hard work. They might go to college with a strong work ethic and marketable skills. We might just be able to dig ourselves out of this massive college debt crisis.

Spooky23 10y ago
You're spot on. I worked on a farm from 12-17. Not an option for a non-Mexican for the last 15 years or so.
mozumder 10y ago
Kids shouldn't be working minimum wage jobs at all. They should be in school, instead. We shouldn't give low-skilled labor jobs to Americans, since that's economically inefficient. The better option would be to just let migrants take these low-skill jobs.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  University is not for everybody (as the massive debt crisis shows) There's (much less) illegal immigration to Canada, but lower wage positions are filled with TFW visas Now, the lower-tier jobs are being replaced with automation. In several Nordic countries (and even in Canada), there's fewer people doing the "cashier" role, they scan or get you the products, but you pay to a machine (either with cash or card)
  - mozumder 10y ago
    > University is not for everybody (as the massive debt crisis shows) University is for everybody. Massive debt is for nobody. Notice how I can separate those two.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
      Even when separating them I'm not sure why you think university is for everybody.
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        Apparently this is the quality of rhetorical logic that's taught at university?
      - rfrey 10y ago
        I think you're using different meanings of the phrase... "well suited to everyone's interests" vs. "available to everyone".
      - muninn_ 10y ago
        It's for everybody, but it may not be necessary for everybody.
    - electricEmu 10y ago
      This is my own personal experience, but not everyone is interested in, or excellent at, education. It's not the system; it's personality. Education shouldn't be forced on anyone either. The entire college debt bubble has been based on this thought that a barista needs a college degree.
  - JoBrad 10y ago
    I agree that not everyone wants a liberal arts degree, but the notion that secondary education isn't for everyone strikes me as a little elitist, even if the people making that claim may not have a secondary degree. We all benefit when the average person has a better education. High school may suffice for the next 50-100 years or so, but the lower bar will continue to rise. Why would we convince ourselves into allowing an entire generation to fall behind because they didn't pursue college?
- rdtsc 10y ago
  Should they be legal or illegal migrants?
- danbruc 10y ago
  We shouldn't give low-skilled labor jobs to Americans, since that's economically inefficient. What a job pays should not be defined by the required skills, at least not exclusively, it should be paid by the amount of work one does. And what a job pays is actually not defined by the required skills, it is defined by the availability and willingness of workers to do those jobs at certain wage levels, it just happens that increasing skill level and decreasing availability of workers are the same direction. Note that I am not saying that a lazy worker taking ten times as long to produce some good as his coworkers should receive the same wage, nor I am saying you should not be compensate for spending additional years at an university to acquire higher skills. But after one accounted for those factors, it should really not make a huge difference whether you are developing software or whether you are picking oranges.
- Amezarak 10y ago
  > Kids shouldn't be working minimum wage jobs at all. They should be in school, instead. I did both, as did most people I know, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect kids to continue to do that.
mcnees287 10y ago
You assume available jobs are located near where teenagers live? In many cases the jobs are located in remote areas with small populations (most agricultural work). Also, I want mine and your teenagers to be studying and preparing for their futures. These are jobs with limited upside, for the most part.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  These jobs aren't located near where Mexicans live either - they are actually on the wrong side of a heavily policed border in an entirely different country.
  - taneq 10y ago
    I'm not sure I agree with the whole chain of logic, but at this point is seems fair to point out that the Mexicans aren't enrolled at a university that requires them to turn up for classes.
- swiftisthebest 10y ago
  Your concept of who illegal immigrants are and what they do is completely fabricated by media influences whose incentives are not your own. It is false. See here: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/03/26/chapter-1-occupations-of-unauthorized-immigrant-workers/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/03/26/chapter-1-occupations-... Learning discipline and the value of hard work is infinitely more important than learning things that are easily Googlable in out-dated high school curriculums.
- melling 10y ago
  There's no need to assume anything because the article states the kind of workers needed: "hospitality, construction and agriculture, " Agriculture is mentioned, of course, but it's seasonal. Two months out of the year? What jobs do you do for the other 10 months?
  - merpnderp 10y ago
    When I was a kid I did pipeline work during summer breaks. Lots of kids are out of school during harvest season, one of the major reasons for kids even having school breaks.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mcguire 10y ago
"...work for less than minimum wage..." Source? (Paying your employees less than minimum wage is going to make your tax records look funny.)
- mcguire 10y ago
  No, really, does anyone have a source that says that most/many/a significant fraction of undocumented workers are paid less than the minimum wage?
an_cap 10y ago
Imagine if we lived in a world in which all forms of discrimination based on circumstances at birth was considered beyond the pale. Or conversely, a world in which it was okay to say about blacks what we say about foreigners. For instance, would this be okay? "Hey, you know that lazy generation of kids coming through college right now without any experience actually holding a job? What if, bear with me here, what if, instead of black people from all over the country who can work for less than minimum wage (because they're already breaking the law by working in whites only jobs in the first place), what if instead of black people taking those jobs, white youth actually held jobs and got experience working? Wouldn't that be nuts? Oh you probably think white people don't want those jobs, right? They don't. At least, not for less than minimum wage, because that's illegal and nobody wants to have that on their record. But white teenagers definitely want money. Everybody does. Imagine a world where there is ZERO black workers in whites only occupations. Teenagers actually might learn the value of hard work. They might go to college with a strong work ethic and marketable skills. We might just be able to dig ourselves out of this massive college debt crisis." If it were illegal for blacks to work some jobs (as it once was in a not-too distant past in a not-so-far-away place) wouldn't the appropriate response be to make it legal for them to compete with whites for said jobs
- throwaway7312 10y ago
  I think this is a great idea. I suggest China, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Africa start first. As soon as China opens its borders to anyone who wants to go in and make lots of money there, and Saudi Arabia does so, and Israel does so, and Africa opens its borders to anyone who wants to go and tap into its natural resources, we should think about maybe doing the same here too. As it stands, we already have a lot of illegal immigrants already, so let's let these other places take the lead first and we'll catch up with them later.
fmatthew5876 10y ago
White American kids don't want these jobs. "We're a nice white family and our kids deserve to go to college". Especially for people coming from marginal backgrounds, sending your kids to college is seen as an achievement and part of the American Dream. High class successful people go to college and low class losers go to work out of high school. Those dirty jobs are for "other" people, not us. How many of your friends would be happy if their kids became an electrician, plumber, fire fighter, or police officer? These jobs can pay well but nobody wants to do them. You don't need an expensive college degree either, just vocational training. Thats much better than your starbucks barista with 60k student loan debt on her photography degree. Not everyone needs to go to college. In fact I think it would be better if we killed the stigma against the trades and integrated vocational paths with public high schools. College is academia, and its only relevant if you're going into the sciences or some other highly technical skilled arena or the arts. Sorry but not all of your children are special and gifted. To many kids going to college, getting expensive useless degrees, and then having little job prospects and a load of student debt. Not to mention the increased demand these people bring inflates college tuition for everyone else.

Spooky23 10y ago

You're spot on. I worked on a farm from 12-17. Not an option for a non-Mexican for the last 15 years or so.

mozumder 10y ago

Kids shouldn't be working minimum wage jobs at all. They should be in school, instead. We shouldn't give low-skilled labor jobs to Americans, since that's economically inefficient. The better option would be to just let migrants take these low-skill jobs.

raverbashing 10y ago
University is not for everybody (as the massive debt crisis shows) There's (much less) illegal immigration to Canada, but lower wage positions are filled with TFW visas Now, the lower-tier jobs are being replaced with automation. In several Nordic countries (and even in Canada), there's fewer people doing the "cashier" role, they scan or get you the products, but you pay to a machine (either with cash or card)
- mozumder 10y ago
  > University is not for everybody (as the massive debt crisis shows) University is for everybody. Massive debt is for nobody. Notice how I can separate those two.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
    Even when separating them I'm not sure why you think university is for everybody.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Apparently this is the quality of rhetorical logic that's taught at university?
    - rfrey 10y ago
      I think you're using different meanings of the phrase... "well suited to everyone's interests" vs. "available to everyone".
    - muninn_ 10y ago
      It's for everybody, but it may not be necessary for everybody.
  - electricEmu 10y ago
    This is my own personal experience, but not everyone is interested in, or excellent at, education. It's not the system; it's personality. Education shouldn't be forced on anyone either. The entire college debt bubble has been based on this thought that a barista needs a college degree.
- JoBrad 10y ago
  I agree that not everyone wants a liberal arts degree, but the notion that secondary education isn't for everyone strikes me as a little elitist, even if the people making that claim may not have a secondary degree. We all benefit when the average person has a better education. High school may suffice for the next 50-100 years or so, but the lower bar will continue to rise. Why would we convince ourselves into allowing an entire generation to fall behind because they didn't pursue college?
rdtsc 10y ago
Should they be legal or illegal migrants?
danbruc 10y ago
We shouldn't give low-skilled labor jobs to Americans, since that's economically inefficient. What a job pays should not be defined by the required skills, at least not exclusively, it should be paid by the amount of work one does. And what a job pays is actually not defined by the required skills, it is defined by the availability and willingness of workers to do those jobs at certain wage levels, it just happens that increasing skill level and decreasing availability of workers are the same direction. Note that I am not saying that a lazy worker taking ten times as long to produce some good as his coworkers should receive the same wage, nor I am saying you should not be compensate for spending additional years at an university to acquire higher skills. But after one accounted for those factors, it should really not make a huge difference whether you are developing software or whether you are picking oranges.
Amezarak 10y ago
> Kids shouldn't be working minimum wage jobs at all. They should be in school, instead. I did both, as did most people I know, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect kids to continue to do that.

mcnees287 10y ago

You assume available jobs are located near where teenagers live? In many cases the jobs are located in remote areas with small populations (most agricultural work). Also, I want mine and your teenagers to be studying and preparing for their futures. These are jobs with limited upside, for the most part.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
These jobs aren't located near where Mexicans live either - they are actually on the wrong side of a heavily policed border in an entirely different country.
- taneq 10y ago
  I'm not sure I agree with the whole chain of logic, but at this point is seems fair to point out that the Mexicans aren't enrolled at a university that requires them to turn up for classes.
swiftisthebest 10y ago
Your concept of who illegal immigrants are and what they do is completely fabricated by media influences whose incentives are not your own. It is false. See here: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/03/26/chapter-1-occupations-of-unauthorized-immigrant-workers/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/03/26/chapter-1-occupations-... Learning discipline and the value of hard work is infinitely more important than learning things that are easily Googlable in out-dated high school curriculums.
melling 10y ago
There's no need to assume anything because the article states the kind of workers needed: "hospitality, construction and agriculture, " Agriculture is mentioned, of course, but it's seasonal. Two months out of the year? What jobs do you do for the other 10 months?
- merpnderp 10y ago
  When I was a kid I did pipeline work during summer breaks. Lots of kids are out of school during harvest season, one of the major reasons for kids even having school breaks.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mcguire 10y ago

"...work for less than minimum wage..." Source? (Paying your employees less than minimum wage is going to make your tax records look funny.)

mcguire 10y ago
No, really, does anyone have a source that says that most/many/a significant fraction of undocumented workers are paid less than the minimum wage?

an_cap 10y ago

Imagine if we lived in a world in which all forms of discrimination based on circumstances at birth was considered beyond the pale. Or conversely, a world in which it was okay to say about blacks what we say about foreigners. For instance, would this be okay? "Hey, you know that lazy generation of kids coming through college right now without any experience actually holding a job? What if, bear with me here, what if, instead of black people from all over the country who can work for less than minimum wage (because they're already breaking the law by working in whites only jobs in the first place), what if instead of black people taking those jobs, white youth actually held jobs and got experience working? Wouldn't that be nuts? Oh you probably think white people don't want those jobs, right? They don't. At least, not for less than minimum wage, because that's illegal and nobody wants to have that on their record. But white teenagers definitely want money. Everybody does. Imagine a world where there is ZERO black workers in whites only occupations. Teenagers actually might learn the value of hard work. They might go to college with a strong work ethic and marketable skills. We might just be able to dig ourselves out of this massive college debt crisis." If it were illegal for blacks to work some jobs (as it once was in a not-too distant past in a not-so-far-away place) wouldn't the appropriate response be to make it legal for them to compete with whites for said jobs

throwaway7312 10y ago
I think this is a great idea. I suggest China, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Africa start first. As soon as China opens its borders to anyone who wants to go in and make lots of money there, and Saudi Arabia does so, and Israel does so, and Africa opens its borders to anyone who wants to go and tap into its natural resources, we should think about maybe doing the same here too. As it stands, we already have a lot of illegal immigrants already, so let's let these other places take the lead first and we'll catch up with them later.

fmatthew5876 10y ago

White American kids don't want these jobs. "We're a nice white family and our kids deserve to go to college". Especially for people coming from marginal backgrounds, sending your kids to college is seen as an achievement and part of the American Dream. High class successful people go to college and low class losers go to work out of high school. Those dirty jobs are for "other" people, not us. How many of your friends would be happy if their kids became an electrician, plumber, fire fighter, or police officer? These jobs can pay well but nobody wants to do them. You don't need an expensive college degree either, just vocational training. Thats much better than your starbucks barista with 60k student loan debt on her photography degree. Not everyone needs to go to college. In fact I think it would be better if we killed the stigma against the trades and integrated vocational paths with public high schools. College is academia, and its only relevant if you're going into the sciences or some other highly technical skilled arena or the arts. Sorry but not all of your children are special and gifted. To many kids going to college, getting expensive useless degrees, and then having little job prospects and a load of student debt. Not to mention the increased demand these people bring inflates college tuition for everyone else.