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What makes Americans more deserving than Mexicans? Do Americans contribute something during their childhood which is repayed as wages in adulthood? Or is it the
by Hondor 10y ago
What makes Americans more deserving than Mexicans? Do Americans contribute something during their childhood which is repayed as wages in adulthood? Or is it the same factor that makes whites more deserving than blacks - i.e. membership of the same in-group?
- toomuchtodo 10y agoCitizenship is membership. If you don't like it, start your own country. But that's how the current system works. I don't care the color of your skin, I expect you to follow the same rules everyone does to apply for citizenship.
- icebraining 10y agoThe question is which rules should those be.
- toomuchtodo 10y agoThe rules created by a democratic process of course. As voted on by the citizens of a country. That's how sovereignty works. Or are you advocating for removal of sovereignty for the economic benefit of citizens of other countries because "that's more moral"? Hardly.
- icebraining 10y agoYes. And as citizens (of various countries), that's what we're arguing. Just because citizens set the rules doesn't mean whatever they decide is necessarily just. EDIT: In reply to your edit, I have no idea why you'd bring up "removal of sovereignty". I don't see anyone here even hinting at that.
- jessaustin 10y agoI don't know precisely what "removal of sovereignty" means, but I suspect it means that undocumented immigrants undermine USA laws, by routinely breaking them. Even from the outside that seems different than debating (and voting) what the laws should be... One suspects you'd be more sensitive to this difference if the laws in question were those that you strongly support.
- icebraining 10y agoThe questioning of my support of sovereignty came in reply to my post saying the question is what the laws/rules should be. If the sovereignty worry is about illegal immigration, then the reply makes no sense in the context of my post.
- yummyfajitas 10y agoCitizens in the US voted for Jim Crow and it was only overturned via non-democratic means. Were these laws moral at the time? To take a modern example, will Maharashtra's proposed law against Biharis driving autos be moral if it has popular support? (Background: Marathi nationalists have - this year - proposed Jim Crow type laws against non Marathis driving taxis/auto rickshaws.)
- marchenko 10y agoThe Jim Crow laws were most certainly overturned through democratic means, namely the 1964 Civil Rights Act (an act of the elected legislature) invoking the Commerce Clause (part of the Constitution) and 1965 Voting Rights Act. If you mean they were not repealed through by referendum or plebiscite, that is true, but neither were they enacted through direct voting. This is the case with most laws in the US.
- aleph_naught 10y agoI'm guessing by 'non-democratic' means, he was referring to Brown v. Board of Education (1954).
- yummyfajitas 10y agoI actually misremembered which was ended by law and which by judicial fiat. Regardless, the moral question of whether they were justified when democratically popular remains.
- phkahler 10y agoYou can debate what the rules "should be" but in the mean time it would be nice if people obey the rules that are currently in place.
- icebraining 10y agoIf you're waiting for people to stop breaking the law altogether to make reforms, you'll never reform a law in your life. Sounds like an excuse to do nothing.
- phkahler 10y agoThat sounds like you're advocating civil disobedience. But what exactly are illegal immigrants willing to work in shitty conditions, below minimum wage, without paying taxes fighting for?
- icebraining 10y agoNo, please re-read my post, I meant what I wrote and nothing else. Whatever the law, some people will always be breaking it. Should we wait for murders to stop happening before we reform the laws regarding it? We'd still have crucifixions and stonings! That doesn't mean one supports murders, just that it's not a justification for inaction.
- phkahler 10y agoI'm not waiting for anyone to stop breaking the law, I'm waiting for someone to start enforcing the law. I'm not sure if I'm arguing or agreeing ;-)
- WaxProlix 10y agoWhich rules did you follow in order to attain membership?
- toomuchtodo 10y agoLife is not fair, nor a meritocracy. I'd love U.K. Or Canadian citizenship. Even as a US citizen, I need to get in line like everyone else.