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>> "On the contrary, it's dangerous not to call out evil for what it is." Judging on the comments on this thread most people (I'm not specifically referring to

>> "On the contrary, it's dangerous not to call out evil for what it is." Judging on the comments on this thread most people (I'm not specifically referring to you) are making statements based on what they've heard, not by what they've personally researched, and unfortunately a lot of that information is biased or propaganda. I'm not coming down one way or the other but something I found very interesting was comparing the comments in this thread to those of world leaders. The vast majority of world leaders, including those in modern, developer, western states, are praising Castro for helping bring down apartheid, providing good health care and education to his citizens etc. My point really is that on this issue as persons views are clearly shaped by the propaganda they are exposed to and their personal political opinions (e.g. socialism is evil, socialism is fair and good). Like most people Castro did good and bad. Some of the things he did may be construed as evil but he also did quite a lot of good things so brandishing the person as evil rather than considering all of the factors is foolish.

kristianc 10y ago
> Judging on the comments on this thread most people (I'm not specifically referring to you) are making statements based on what they've heard, not by what they've personally researched, and unfortunately a lot of that information is biased or propaganda. By any objective measure - and according to experts on human rights and liberty - Cuba is one of the most repressive countries on earth. https://freedomhouse.org/country/cuba https://freedomhouse.org/country/cuba https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/cuba https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/cuba Edit: Additional reports from Ammesty International, Human Rights Watch and RSF below also.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  Well, Freedom House, according to wikipedia: "U.S. Government funded non-governmental organisation (NGO) that conducts research and advocacy on democracy, political freedom, and human rights Representatives of Cuba said that the organization is a U.S. foreign policy instrument linked to the CIA and "submitted proof of the politically motivated, interventionist activities the NGO (Freedom House) carried out against their Government". They also claimed a lack of criticism of U.S. human rights violations in the annual reports. Cuba also stated that these violations are well documented by other reports, such as those of Human Rights Watch. The Russian representative inquired "why this organization, an NGO which defended human rights, was against the creation of the International Criminal Court." There is so much propaganda regarding this little Caribbean island, that it is wise to carefully consider one's sources.
  - kristianc 10y ago
    It's a little rich of the Russian representative to claim that, given that Russia has just withdrawn from the International Criminal Court. For what it's worth, Human Rights Watch's report about Cuba is also pretty damning: > The Cuban government continues to repress dissent and discourage public criticism. It now relies less on long-term prison sentences to punish its critics, but short-term arbitrary arrests of human rights defenders, independent journalists, and others have increased dramatically in recent years. Other repressive tactics employed by the government include beatings, public acts of shaming, and the termination of employment. As is Amnesty International's: > Despite increasingly open diplomatic relations, severe restrictions on freedoms of expression, association and movement continued. Thousands of cases of harassment of government critics and arbitrary arrests and detentions were reported. And Reporters Sans Frontieres rank Cuba 171 out of 180 countries in the world for Press Freedom.
    - alexro 10y ago
      US is not part of International Criminal Court either. So what's the point?
    - anigbrowl 10y ago
      As a legal un-person in the US, I have to view this with ironic amusement. A good deal of US economic prosperity seems to depend on the maintenance of a despised underclass, at least according to certain politicians. As a member of said underclass, it's a bit hard to take the moral posturing here very seriously. I'm sure Cuban apologists for their governments' excesses also mouth pieties about their country being 'a nation of laws' and cite legislative formalities as a figleaf for their moral embarrassment.
  - rospaya 10y ago
    Do you want dozens of other sources to confirm it, if Freedom House isn't enough? It's obtuse to claim Cuba has political freedom.
- clarete 10y ago
  I'm not sure I'd count that source as valid after reading what they wrote in /brazil. The text has the same opinion as the media they rate as "partially free". They're defending the side that won without really understanding what happened there. I wonder how better the analysis on Cuba could be.
cmbailey 10y ago
Fidel Castro leaves behind a nation awash with tears and blood from thousands of executions, tens of thousands of political prisoners, concentration camps for gay men, labor camps for those who thought differently, listened to jazz, or even just had long hair. These are facts I learned only after doing more research, after listening to friends who are gay and who did years of research. So we all need to be careful not to repeat the trope "but healthcare and education were good and free and available to all". I for many years allowed those reports, parroted so often, to soften my judgment of Castro. But now learning of the extent of the horrors of oppression, those outweigh any social welfare "results". And now I have had cause to question even those results as I read and learn of a healthcare system where critical operations that were performed only after agonizing waits for eight months and then by doctors and nurses so starved of supplies that they sometimes operated with bare hands. Castro should be remembered for the suffering he caused - all of it preventable. The best way to him sum up is to consider that he created an island prison where nobody was allowed to leave without his permission - and for an unbearable number of years most of the world applauded him. I hope you will remember this and hear the cynical trying to tie themselves to a "distinguished legacy" when politicians comment today.
- danharaj 10y ago
  Yes, Cuba was a shitty place for gay people before 1981. Then the government declared that homosexuality was a valid variation of human sexuality and that previous attitudes towards it were unacceptable. Keep in mind during the same period that Cuba was repressing homosexuality, so was the United States. Cuba did not ignore the AIDS epidemic that killed literally an entire generation of gay people. The Cuban government did not laugh and call it the gay plague. I don't like Cuba. I'm not a state socialist. But I find it disconcerting that everyone is so passionately piling up their attacks on the Cuban government but would never scrutinize the US government in such detail. There are people in this thread who are bringing up actions the US have taken that would be considered objectionable by the same standards, but they aren't being addressed; they are being brushed aside as irrelevant or incomparable. Imagine being that drunk on propaganda. As if the United States did not forcibly dismantle political parties it deemed dangerous in the United States. As if the United States did not repress its LGBT minorities. As if the United States doesn't bully the entire world in order to get its economic benefits. As if the United States doesn't torture and murder civilians. As if the United States and capitalism are completely blameless for the extreme poverty in Detroit or Flint. It's really sickening to watch people deny or downplay the violence inherent in the perpetuation of their favorite system of government. Ironic, I guess.

kristianc 10y ago

> Judging on the comments on this thread most people (I'm not specifically referring to you) are making statements based on what they've heard, not by what they've personally researched, and unfortunately a lot of that information is biased or propaganda. By any objective measure - and according to experts on human rights and liberty - Cuba is one of the most repressive countries on earth. https://freedomhouse.org/country/cuba https://freedomhouse.org/country/cuba https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/cuba https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/cuba Edit: Additional reports from Ammesty International, Human Rights Watch and RSF below also.

narrowrail 10y ago
Well, Freedom House, according to wikipedia: "U.S. Government funded non-governmental organisation (NGO) that conducts research and advocacy on democracy, political freedom, and human rights Representatives of Cuba said that the organization is a U.S. foreign policy instrument linked to the CIA and "submitted proof of the politically motivated, interventionist activities the NGO (Freedom House) carried out against their Government". They also claimed a lack of criticism of U.S. human rights violations in the annual reports. Cuba also stated that these violations are well documented by other reports, such as those of Human Rights Watch. The Russian representative inquired "why this organization, an NGO which defended human rights, was against the creation of the International Criminal Court." There is so much propaganda regarding this little Caribbean island, that it is wise to carefully consider one's sources.
- kristianc 10y ago
  It's a little rich of the Russian representative to claim that, given that Russia has just withdrawn from the International Criminal Court. For what it's worth, Human Rights Watch's report about Cuba is also pretty damning: > The Cuban government continues to repress dissent and discourage public criticism. It now relies less on long-term prison sentences to punish its critics, but short-term arbitrary arrests of human rights defenders, independent journalists, and others have increased dramatically in recent years. Other repressive tactics employed by the government include beatings, public acts of shaming, and the termination of employment. As is Amnesty International's: > Despite increasingly open diplomatic relations, severe restrictions on freedoms of expression, association and movement continued. Thousands of cases of harassment of government critics and arbitrary arrests and detentions were reported. And Reporters Sans Frontieres rank Cuba 171 out of 180 countries in the world for Press Freedom.
  - alexro 10y ago
    US is not part of International Criminal Court either. So what's the point?
  - anigbrowl 10y ago
    As a legal un-person in the US, I have to view this with ironic amusement. A good deal of US economic prosperity seems to depend on the maintenance of a despised underclass, at least according to certain politicians. As a member of said underclass, it's a bit hard to take the moral posturing here very seriously. I'm sure Cuban apologists for their governments' excesses also mouth pieties about their country being 'a nation of laws' and cite legislative formalities as a figleaf for their moral embarrassment.
- rospaya 10y ago
  Do you want dozens of other sources to confirm it, if Freedom House isn't enough? It's obtuse to claim Cuba has political freedom.
clarete 10y ago
I'm not sure I'd count that source as valid after reading what they wrote in /brazil. The text has the same opinion as the media they rate as "partially free". They're defending the side that won without really understanding what happened there. I wonder how better the analysis on Cuba could be.

cmbailey 10y ago

Fidel Castro leaves behind a nation awash with tears and blood from thousands of executions, tens of thousands of political prisoners, concentration camps for gay men, labor camps for those who thought differently, listened to jazz, or even just had long hair. These are facts I learned only after doing more research, after listening to friends who are gay and who did years of research. So we all need to be careful not to repeat the trope "but healthcare and education were good and free and available to all". I for many years allowed those reports, parroted so often, to soften my judgment of Castro. But now learning of the extent of the horrors of oppression, those outweigh any social welfare "results". And now I have had cause to question even those results as I read and learn of a healthcare system where critical operations that were performed only after agonizing waits for eight months and then by doctors and nurses so starved of supplies that they sometimes operated with bare hands. Castro should be remembered for the suffering he caused - all of it preventable. The best way to him sum up is to consider that he created an island prison where nobody was allowed to leave without his permission - and for an unbearable number of years most of the world applauded him. I hope you will remember this and hear the cynical trying to tie themselves to a "distinguished legacy" when politicians comment today.

danharaj 10y ago
Yes, Cuba was a shitty place for gay people before 1981. Then the government declared that homosexuality was a valid variation of human sexuality and that previous attitudes towards it were unacceptable. Keep in mind during the same period that Cuba was repressing homosexuality, so was the United States. Cuba did not ignore the AIDS epidemic that killed literally an entire generation of gay people. The Cuban government did not laugh and call it the gay plague. I don't like Cuba. I'm not a state socialist. But I find it disconcerting that everyone is so passionately piling up their attacks on the Cuban government but would never scrutinize the US government in such detail. There are people in this thread who are bringing up actions the US have taken that would be considered objectionable by the same standards, but they aren't being addressed; they are being brushed aside as irrelevant or incomparable. Imagine being that drunk on propaganda. As if the United States did not forcibly dismantle political parties it deemed dangerous in the United States. As if the United States did not repress its LGBT minorities. As if the United States doesn't bully the entire world in order to get its economic benefits. As if the United States doesn't torture and murder civilians. As if the United States and capitalism are completely blameless for the extreme poverty in Detroit or Flint. It's really sickening to watch people deny or downplay the violence inherent in the perpetuation of their favorite system of government. Ironic, I guess.