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"The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda." + Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. + Fide

"The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda." + Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. + Fidel does not allow democracy + He does not allow any real internet access + Fidel puts political dissidents in jail + Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy + Cuban's live in relative poverty + Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 other nations in the world - and even buy American products from wherever they want - just not America. This is not 'propaganda'.

kuschku 10y ago
> + Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 other nations in the world - and even buy American products from wherever they want - just not America. Except, any company making a deal with Cuba is automatically banned from dealing with the US. To this date, the US even interfers in Europe regarding that: There is a famous case where a German bought Cuban Cigars from a Dane, and the FBI interfered, and seized the funds from their bank accounts. If any company ever touches the USD, the US claims to have jurisdiction over them. > + Cuban's live in relative poverty The median wealth and income in Cuba is higher than most middle american countries. Cuba is not a great country to live in, but please don’t distort the facts. That doesn’t make you any better than the North Korean propaganda that claims the US president eats babies.
- kareemm 10y ago
  > Except, any company making a deal with Cuba is automatically banned from dealing with the US. Can you be more precise by what you mean when you say "making a deal"? Does flying to Cuba constitute "making a deal"? Air Canada has flown there for years and still flies to the US.
NhanH 10y ago
Half of those you listed are just normal characteristics of communist state, to argue on those would be to argue on whether communism is "evil" in comparison to capitalism or not. This is very much not self-evident as you seem to assume from your post (I'm not interested in said discussion, just pointing out how biased looking your comment reads to me). Just to put a concrete point, Per capita GDP of Cuba is 4 times the largest democracy country (India).
- bzbarsky 10y ago
  > Just to put a concrete point, Per capita GDP of Cuba is 4 times the largest democracy country (India). I'm seeing it at closer to 3x based on <http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-per-capita> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-per-capita> and <http://www.tradingeconomics.com/cuba/gdp-per-capita> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/cuba/gdp-per-capita>. But even granting 4x, notice that it was 5x back in 1970 (which is as early as the Cuba chart in this dataset goes). And if you look at numbers from right before the Cuban revolution, it was about 6x... Of course the embargo, the Soviet subsidies, the removal of those subsidies, and the sugar price crash in the 90s make it hard to make much practical sense of Cuban GDP per capita and its evolution. I _would_ like to respond to your "normal characteristics" point, though. The "people aren't allowed to leave" your country _is_ a normal characteristic of communist states, but that doesn't make it OK. And I would argue that it's not necessarily inherent to "communism", and _is_ "evil" in pretty basic terms: it violates the right of freedom of movement. See also UN declaration of human rights, article 13. I understand the practical reasons such a restriction is instituted, and I can even make some moral arguments for it (e.g. owing a debt to the society that provided your education and hence not being allowed to take your skills elsewhere), but I still don't think the outcome is OK.
ifdefdebug 10y ago
Here are some points of propaganda: > Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. Everybody is (now) free to leave Cuba. But OK, I think that's fairly recent. > Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy "Fidel's private Army" is just an ugly sound byte. It's the Cuban army and it's not going to be dissolved now that he's dead. > Cuban's live in relative poverty While poverty is a problem, it's not a Cuban problem. For instance, Americans also live in poverty (at least 45 millions of them) On the other side, western propaganda blanks out a lot of facts about Cuba. Among those is the fact that a significant percentage of Cubans approve their government.
- barsonme 10y ago
  Is American and Cuban poverty the same?
  - realusername 10y ago
    The extreme poverty in the US can honestly be worse than Cuban poverty.
  - leesalminen 10y ago
    I used to live in Buffalo, NY. There are things there I never saw throughout my travels of South America.
  - celticninja 10y ago
    No because the US has the resources and wealth to ensure that its citizens do not have to live in poverty and could provide health care and education to everyone (they just choose not to) . In Cuba they don't have the resources or wealth but they still manage on health care and education but are still struggling with poverty.
- mzw_mzw 10y ago
  I can't help but notice that you skipped over the little details about a lack of democracy, a lack of free access to information, and how dissidents are punished. > On the other side, western propaganda blanks out a lot of facts about Cuba. Among those is the fact that a significant percentage of Cubans approve their government. I can't help but notice that you skipped over the little details about a lack of democracy, a lack of free access to information, and how dissidents are punished. > On the other side, western propaganda blanks out a lot of facts about Cuba. Among those is the fact that a significant percentage of Cubans approve their government. Weird. Then why the resistance to holding elections?
IslaDeEncanta 10y ago
You are ignorant of the reality of Cuban society. People have been able to leave Cuba freely since 1980. Cuba is a participatory democracy, with essentially every adult being involved. Internet access was not really a priority with the USSR collapsing and the recovery from that, but it is being quickly broadened. Only those who actively attempt to undermine the Cuban democracy are imprisoned, but people are free to vote for liberal candidates and a minority does. The average Cuban has a better standard of living than the average Oklahoman or Mississippian. Finally, the embargo is not just a ban on trading with Cuba; it's a ban on doing business with anyone who does business with Cuba. That effectively restricts 99% of multinationals from trading with Cuba.
- gaius 10y ago
  None of that is true. I've been to Havana; I've seen the buildings where 3 families are crammed into an apartment meant for one, where the windows are covered with cardboard because there's no glass, the electricity is on a few hours a day, where the concrete is crumbling so badly you could break it off with your fingers. And I've seen just outside town the gorgeous villas with manicured gardens and water features, where members of the Party live. There's inequality in the West but nothing like there is in the "worker's paradise".
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    Try working on minimum wage in London.
    - varjag 10y ago
      There are legal, efficient ways out of poverty in the UK. There are none on Cuba.
      - IslaDeEncanta 10y ago
        Cubans do not live in poverty. There are neither rich nor poor. And if you think there's an "efficient" way to escape poverty in the UK, you've never been poor.
gaius 10y ago
Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment This is the big one. Many countries have restrictions on people coming, for various reasons, but any country/govt that prevents people leaving knows perfectly well that it's doing something that people want to flee.
- throwaway-hn123 10y ago
  How much does it cost to stop being an American citizen? How many poor American people can afford that cost?
  - gaius 10y ago
    How is that relevant? Lots of people in Miami consider themselves Cuban and are just waiting for the opportunity to go home and reclaim their family's birthright. Leaving a particular regime doesn't mean abandoning your heritage.

kuschku 10y ago

> + Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 other nations in the world - and even buy American products from wherever they want - just not America. Except, any company making a deal with Cuba is automatically banned from dealing with the US. To this date, the US even interfers in Europe regarding that: There is a famous case where a German bought Cuban Cigars from a Dane, and the FBI interfered, and seized the funds from their bank accounts. If any company ever touches the USD, the US claims to have jurisdiction over them. > + Cuban's live in relative poverty The median wealth and income in Cuba is higher than most middle american countries. Cuba is not a great country to live in, but please don’t distort the facts. That doesn’t make you any better than the North Korean propaganda that claims the US president eats babies.

kareemm 10y ago
> Except, any company making a deal with Cuba is automatically banned from dealing with the US. Can you be more precise by what you mean when you say "making a deal"? Does flying to Cuba constitute "making a deal"? Air Canada has flown there for years and still flies to the US.

NhanH 10y ago

Half of those you listed are just normal characteristics of communist state, to argue on those would be to argue on whether communism is "evil" in comparison to capitalism or not. This is very much not self-evident as you seem to assume from your post (I'm not interested in said discussion, just pointing out how biased looking your comment reads to me). Just to put a concrete point, Per capita GDP of Cuba is 4 times the largest democracy country (India).

bzbarsky 10y ago
> Just to put a concrete point, Per capita GDP of Cuba is 4 times the largest democracy country (India). I'm seeing it at closer to 3x based on <http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-per-capita> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-per-capita> and <http://www.tradingeconomics.com/cuba/gdp-per-capita> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/cuba/gdp-per-capita>. But even granting 4x, notice that it was 5x back in 1970 (which is as early as the Cuba chart in this dataset goes). And if you look at numbers from right before the Cuban revolution, it was about 6x... Of course the embargo, the Soviet subsidies, the removal of those subsidies, and the sugar price crash in the 90s make it hard to make much practical sense of Cuban GDP per capita and its evolution. I _would_ like to respond to your "normal characteristics" point, though. The "people aren't allowed to leave" your country _is_ a normal characteristic of communist states, but that doesn't make it OK. And I would argue that it's not necessarily inherent to "communism", and _is_ "evil" in pretty basic terms: it violates the right of freedom of movement. See also UN declaration of human rights, article 13. I understand the practical reasons such a restriction is instituted, and I can even make some moral arguments for it (e.g. owing a debt to the society that provided your education and hence not being allowed to take your skills elsewhere), but I still don't think the outcome is OK.

ifdefdebug 10y ago

Here are some points of propaganda: > Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. Everybody is (now) free to leave Cuba. But OK, I think that's fairly recent. > Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy "Fidel's private Army" is just an ugly sound byte. It's the Cuban army and it's not going to be dissolved now that he's dead. > Cuban's live in relative poverty While poverty is a problem, it's not a Cuban problem. For instance, Americans also live in poverty (at least 45 millions of them) On the other side, western propaganda blanks out a lot of facts about Cuba. Among those is the fact that a significant percentage of Cubans approve their government.

barsonme 10y ago
Is American and Cuban poverty the same?
- realusername 10y ago
  The extreme poverty in the US can honestly be worse than Cuban poverty.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  I used to live in Buffalo, NY. There are things there I never saw throughout my travels of South America.
- celticninja 10y ago
  No because the US has the resources and wealth to ensure that its citizens do not have to live in poverty and could provide health care and education to everyone (they just choose not to) . In Cuba they don't have the resources or wealth but they still manage on health care and education but are still struggling with poverty.
mzw_mzw 10y ago
I can't help but notice that you skipped over the little details about a lack of democracy, a lack of free access to information, and how dissidents are punished. > On the other side, western propaganda blanks out a lot of facts about Cuba. Among those is the fact that a significant percentage of Cubans approve their government. I can't help but notice that you skipped over the little details about a lack of democracy, a lack of free access to information, and how dissidents are punished. > On the other side, western propaganda blanks out a lot of facts about Cuba. Among those is the fact that a significant percentage of Cubans approve their government. Weird. Then why the resistance to holding elections?

IslaDeEncanta 10y ago

You are ignorant of the reality of Cuban society. People have been able to leave Cuba freely since 1980. Cuba is a participatory democracy, with essentially every adult being involved. Internet access was not really a priority with the USSR collapsing and the recovery from that, but it is being quickly broadened. Only those who actively attempt to undermine the Cuban democracy are imprisoned, but people are free to vote for liberal candidates and a minority does. The average Cuban has a better standard of living than the average Oklahoman or Mississippian. Finally, the embargo is not just a ban on trading with Cuba; it's a ban on doing business with anyone who does business with Cuba. That effectively restricts 99% of multinationals from trading with Cuba.

gaius 10y ago
None of that is true. I've been to Havana; I've seen the buildings where 3 families are crammed into an apartment meant for one, where the windows are covered with cardboard because there's no glass, the electricity is on a few hours a day, where the concrete is crumbling so badly you could break it off with your fingers. And I've seen just outside town the gorgeous villas with manicured gardens and water features, where members of the Party live. There's inequality in the West but nothing like there is in the "worker's paradise".
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  Try working on minimum wage in London.
  - varjag 10y ago
    There are legal, efficient ways out of poverty in the UK. There are none on Cuba.
    - IslaDeEncanta 10y ago
      Cubans do not live in poverty. There are neither rich nor poor. And if you think there's an "efficient" way to escape poverty in the UK, you've never been poor.

gaius 10y ago

Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment This is the big one. Many countries have restrictions on people coming, for various reasons, but any country/govt that prevents people leaving knows perfectly well that it's doing something that people want to flee.

throwaway-hn123 10y ago
How much does it cost to stop being an American citizen? How many poor American people can afford that cost?
- gaius 10y ago
  How is that relevant? Lots of people in Miami consider themselves Cuban and are just waiting for the opportunity to go home and reclaim their family's birthright. Leaving a particular regime doesn't mean abandoning your heritage.