6 ms·

He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times... And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba wou

He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times... And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba would have faired under different leadership. Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Just one example: life expectancy is 15 years higher than Haiti, and actually even a bit higher than in the US. Organizing the necessities for life on this island, with a superpower fixated on killing you (and ruining you economy) next door, and keeping it peaceful for 50 years must be some sort of high score. I know there'll be many Americans dancing on his grave (once the Trump International Hotel Havanna has opened). They may not even be wrong in an absolute sense. But there have been dozens of leaders in South America, Africa and Asia in the last 50 years much worse than Castro who don't seem to trigger the reflexes of righteousness. Actual mass-murdering sadists like Manuel Noriega, throwing living people into the ocean, from airplanes paid for by the CIA. Let's hope for a bright future for Cuba – I met many people there who felt paralyzed by the stagnation, the constant scarcity. The beginning of the end of the embargo may turn out to be one of the most significant legacies of President Obama.

gragas 10y ago
>with a superpower fixated on killing you (and ruining you economy) next door Look at how awful the quality of life in Cuba is today. Look at its people's lack of basic freedoms. Look at its awful economy. The US tried to save Cuba from itself.
- rorykoehler 10y ago
  The problem with the US model is it leaves no room for other/different ideas. It is all consuming. Now that it has no competition to keep itself in check it is well on the way to consuming itself.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    No competition? Look again, this is not 1990 any more.
- meric 10y ago
  Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right?
  - mememachine 10y ago
    this is a good point. i dont think you can really call the us good guys here (or cuba, for that matter)
    - blahi 10y ago
      There are no good guys. There are just interest. The US protects its interests. Embargo on oil exports to the US? Fuck up your whole region so bad that this can't happen again. Divide and concur. Communism on its shore? Well, nobody goes on this forsaken place or else... That's how you keep power and that's why you have such a high standard of living. You think it's because you work hard but it's not. At least not primarily.
  - Hondor 10y ago
    More like how it saved South Korea. Saving usually hasn't worked, but that's one clear counterexample.
    - crdoconnor 10y ago
      It didn't try to "save" South Korea from itself it tried to build it up into an industrial bulwark against the Soviet Union.
  - tomjen3 10y ago
    And Germany and Japan. If the U.S. Had a bit of sanity they could have saved Iraq if they were willing to accept that it should have been split into three countries rather than a pointless attempt to create a country that inky existed as part of the British/French carving up the middle East.
  - geezerjay 10y ago
    > Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right? Libya was a NATO intervention that was pushed and led by France, specifically Sarkozy's government.
- sysk 10y ago
  I'm with you up until "the US tried to save Cuba from itself". Castro was an awful dictator but the US embargo not only didn't save Cuba from itself, it made things worse for ordinary Cuban citizens. I wouldn't be proud of it.
  - pvaldes 10y ago
    And a lot of people would argue that the most awful part of Cuba today is still the Guantanamo of Bush.
- matt4077 10y ago
  Like I said: Compared to Haiti, or Venezuela, or Panama, or Simbabwe, or Ruanda, they did pretty well. Depending on the point in time over the last 50 years and your position in society, even Mexico (Drug wars, now), Argentina (during the dictatorship), or Brasil (born into the wrong class, today) may not be clearly superior in every regard. I've been to Cuba, and life there is somewhat boring, and the standard of living is obviously low. But it's not the kind of poverty you seen many other countries. No starving old people and children in the streets, also no gang violence ruling your block. Streetlife in general seemed quite happy – old people playing chess, young girls playing soccer (in school uniforms, no less), groups of three or four neighbors fixing one of those old cars etc. Now it sounds too much like glorification – I also listened to 6 hours of Castro's labor day sermon in 2003 and most people around me felt I was insane for attending it voluntarily – they only went because somebody, somewhere had to check their name of a list or they may get into trouble. That's a price I wouldn't be willing to pay. I hope Cuba will find a way to preserve a bit of what made it bearable in its worst times.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    Why not compare to the Dominican Republic, say? That seems like a much closer comparison in so many ways - capitalism under a ruthless dictator, a long history of US intervention etc.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  The US has a long history of sponsoring violent coups. I don't think you get to talk about 'saving' anyone.
geezerjay 10y ago
> Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Why didn't you compared Cuba before the coup, and after Fidel Castro established his dictatorship? Comparing Cuba to one of the lowest developed nations on earth, particularly while ignoring the other half of the island (Dominican republic) is a tad disingenuous.
- epicureanideal 10y ago
  I'm also not a "fan" of Castro and don't identify with socialist politics, but comparing Cuba before Castro and after Castro wouldn't be fair. Pre-Castro there was a lot of foreign investment, post-Castro there was an embargo. You can argue whether that's something that can be blamed on him, but if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt I wouldn't call that a fair comparison. For example, there was a story posted on HN long ago about a Soviet dissident who had his life ruined because he was known to be a dissident. They didn't imprison him and torture him, they just got him fired, made sure he couldn't find any but the most menial work, discredited him, etc. Would we say that it was his fault for adopting a pro-Western position? That it was "his policies" that ruined his life, family? Or that an external force opposed to his views and more powerful than him punished him for his views?
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    >comparing Cuba before Castro and after Castro wouldn't be fair. Pre-Castro there was a lot of foreign investment, post-Castro there was an embargo. How is the fact that they've done relatively well in spite of the embargo supposed to make the comparison not fair?
  - geezerjay 10y ago
    > but comparing Cuba before Castro and after Castro wouldn't be fair. Pre-Castro there was a lot of foreign investment, post-Castro there was an embargo. Seems to be a direct consequence of Fidel Castro's political initiatives. I'm sure we can agree that Castro's regime has at least some responsibilities in this outcome. > You can argue whether that's something that can be blamed on him, but if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt I wouldn't call that a fair comparison. That assumption is rather disingenuous. There's a clear before/after period in Cuba. I'm sure you agree that Fidel Castro is the direct responsible for this revolution. If he is responsible for this change, what exactly leads you to believe that he holds no responsibility in any negative consequence that arose naturally from his direct political actions and planning?
bzbarsky 10y ago
The one word I'd like to quibble with here is "comparable". Cuba was twice as rich as Haiti (see graph at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba#/media/File:GDP-Caribbean.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba#/media/File:GD... for example) even before the revolution and had a lot more social capital. Yes, there was a good bit of inequality. Yes, the Batista regime was not great in all sorts of ways. But I expect Cuba would have been better off than Haiti even without the revolution happening. What African countries are you thinking of that you consider comparable to Cuba in 1958? Fully agreed on your last paragraph, though.
rat87 10y ago
Comparing it to Haiti is pretty unfair, Haiti has long been the poorest country in the Americas.
globuous 10y ago
Legitimate question, was the Soviet Union subsidising Cuba during the Cold War (besides military protection) ?
- danharaj 10y ago
  Yes, when the Soviet Union collapsed Cuba went through a huge economic contraction including food shortages. Without virtually no international trade whatsoever, they had to become completely self-sufficient for all the goods and expertise they needed.
  - Pxtl 10y ago
    Trade is not subsidy. Is China subsidizing the USA?
    - danharaj 10y ago
      The economic relationship between Cuba and the Soviet Union was not entirely subsidy, nor entirely trade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_relations#After_the_revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_rela... The United States subsidizes many government within its sphere of influence, too. In turn it also trades with them and gains significant sway over the economic affairs of those countries for the benefit of US markets. Cuba had none of this for the last 25 or so years.
sceew 10y ago
You are asking for racial theories to come out when you compare Cuba to Haiti. I would stay away from doing that.
MaysonL 10y ago
Compare Cuba when he took over to Cuba now: the first a reasonably prosperous country (on a par with Southern Europe), the second a poor, stagnant third world nation.

gragas 10y ago

>with a superpower fixated on killing you (and ruining you economy) next door Look at how awful the quality of life in Cuba is today. Look at its people's lack of basic freedoms. Look at its awful economy. The US tried to save Cuba from itself.

rorykoehler 10y ago
The problem with the US model is it leaves no room for other/different ideas. It is all consuming. Now that it has no competition to keep itself in check it is well on the way to consuming itself.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  No competition? Look again, this is not 1990 any more.
meric 10y ago
Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right?
- mememachine 10y ago
  this is a good point. i dont think you can really call the us good guys here (or cuba, for that matter)
  - blahi 10y ago
    There are no good guys. There are just interest. The US protects its interests. Embargo on oil exports to the US? Fuck up your whole region so bad that this can't happen again. Divide and concur. Communism on its shore? Well, nobody goes on this forsaken place or else... That's how you keep power and that's why you have such a high standard of living. You think it's because you work hard but it's not. At least not primarily.
- Hondor 10y ago
  More like how it saved South Korea. Saving usually hasn't worked, but that's one clear counterexample.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    It didn't try to "save" South Korea from itself it tried to build it up into an industrial bulwark against the Soviet Union.
- tomjen3 10y ago
  And Germany and Japan. If the U.S. Had a bit of sanity they could have saved Iraq if they were willing to accept that it should have been split into three countries rather than a pointless attempt to create a country that inky existed as part of the British/French carving up the middle East.
- geezerjay 10y ago
  > Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right? Libya was a NATO intervention that was pushed and led by France, specifically Sarkozy's government.
sysk 10y ago
I'm with you up until "the US tried to save Cuba from itself". Castro was an awful dictator but the US embargo not only didn't save Cuba from itself, it made things worse for ordinary Cuban citizens. I wouldn't be proud of it.
- pvaldes 10y ago
  And a lot of people would argue that the most awful part of Cuba today is still the Guantanamo of Bush.
matt4077 10y ago
Like I said: Compared to Haiti, or Venezuela, or Panama, or Simbabwe, or Ruanda, they did pretty well. Depending on the point in time over the last 50 years and your position in society, even Mexico (Drug wars, now), Argentina (during the dictatorship), or Brasil (born into the wrong class, today) may not be clearly superior in every regard. I've been to Cuba, and life there is somewhat boring, and the standard of living is obviously low. But it's not the kind of poverty you seen many other countries. No starving old people and children in the streets, also no gang violence ruling your block. Streetlife in general seemed quite happy – old people playing chess, young girls playing soccer (in school uniforms, no less), groups of three or four neighbors fixing one of those old cars etc. Now it sounds too much like glorification – I also listened to 6 hours of Castro's labor day sermon in 2003 and most people around me felt I was insane for attending it voluntarily – they only went because somebody, somewhere had to check their name of a list or they may get into trouble. That's a price I wouldn't be willing to pay. I hope Cuba will find a way to preserve a bit of what made it bearable in its worst times.
- int_19h 10y ago
  Why not compare to the Dominican Republic, say? That seems like a much closer comparison in so many ways - capitalism under a ruthless dictator, a long history of US intervention etc.
literallycancer 10y ago
The US has a long history of sponsoring violent coups. I don't think you get to talk about 'saving' anyone.

geezerjay 10y ago

> Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Why didn't you compared Cuba before the coup, and after Fidel Castro established his dictatorship? Comparing Cuba to one of the lowest developed nations on earth, particularly while ignoring the other half of the island (Dominican republic) is a tad disingenuous.

epicureanideal 10y ago
I'm also not a "fan" of Castro and don't identify with socialist politics, but comparing Cuba before Castro and after Castro wouldn't be fair. Pre-Castro there was a lot of foreign investment, post-Castro there was an embargo. You can argue whether that's something that can be blamed on him, but if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt I wouldn't call that a fair comparison. For example, there was a story posted on HN long ago about a Soviet dissident who had his life ruined because he was known to be a dissident. They didn't imprison him and torture him, they just got him fired, made sure he couldn't find any but the most menial work, discredited him, etc. Would we say that it was his fault for adopting a pro-Western position? That it was "his policies" that ruined his life, family? Or that an external force opposed to his views and more powerful than him punished him for his views?
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  >comparing Cuba before Castro and after Castro wouldn't be fair. Pre-Castro there was a lot of foreign investment, post-Castro there was an embargo. How is the fact that they've done relatively well in spite of the embargo supposed to make the comparison not fair?
- geezerjay 10y ago
  > but comparing Cuba before Castro and after Castro wouldn't be fair. Pre-Castro there was a lot of foreign investment, post-Castro there was an embargo. Seems to be a direct consequence of Fidel Castro's political initiatives. I'm sure we can agree that Castro's regime has at least some responsibilities in this outcome. > You can argue whether that's something that can be blamed on him, but if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt I wouldn't call that a fair comparison. That assumption is rather disingenuous. There's a clear before/after period in Cuba. I'm sure you agree that Fidel Castro is the direct responsible for this revolution. If he is responsible for this change, what exactly leads you to believe that he holds no responsibility in any negative consequence that arose naturally from his direct political actions and planning?

bzbarsky 10y ago

The one word I'd like to quibble with here is "comparable". Cuba was twice as rich as Haiti (see graph at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba#/media/File:GDP-Caribbean.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba#/media/File:GD... for example) even before the revolution and had a lot more social capital. Yes, there was a good bit of inequality. Yes, the Batista regime was not great in all sorts of ways. But I expect Cuba would have been better off than Haiti even without the revolution happening. What African countries are you thinking of that you consider comparable to Cuba in 1958? Fully agreed on your last paragraph, though.

rat87 10y ago

Comparing it to Haiti is pretty unfair, Haiti has long been the poorest country in the Americas.

globuous 10y ago

Legitimate question, was the Soviet Union subsidising Cuba during the Cold War (besides military protection) ?

danharaj 10y ago
Yes, when the Soviet Union collapsed Cuba went through a huge economic contraction including food shortages. Without virtually no international trade whatsoever, they had to become completely self-sufficient for all the goods and expertise they needed.
- Pxtl 10y ago
  Trade is not subsidy. Is China subsidizing the USA?
  - danharaj 10y ago
    The economic relationship between Cuba and the Soviet Union was not entirely subsidy, nor entirely trade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_relations#After_the_revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_rela... The United States subsidizes many government within its sphere of influence, too. In turn it also trades with them and gains significant sway over the economic affairs of those countries for the benefit of US markets. Cuba had none of this for the last 25 or so years.

sceew 10y ago

You are asking for racial theories to come out when you compare Cuba to Haiti. I would stay away from doing that.

MaysonL 10y ago

Compare Cuba when he took over to Cuba now: the first a reasonably prosperous country (on a par with Southern Europe), the second a poor, stagnant third world nation.