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Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cl

Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in the depression as a job creation scheme. Maybe this is the new status quo, there are still jobs that need skills and some are in shortage, though people with labour skills are in abundance - maybe use them instead of having people sit around while there's stuff to do but society can't put the two together.

freshhawk 10y ago
Seems to me that everyone basically agrees about a subset of the beneficial ways that surplus could be spent. The problem is how society would need to be reorganized to make that happen. There is some concentrated power out there that is very opposed to this kind of change.
tachyonbeam 10y ago
I agree with this sentiment. There is a lot of work that needs doing. There are also a lot of parents out there with young children who could use a nanny. There's a need for more therapists, or just people to talk to. There's a lot of work that needs doing. There's an abundance of people to do the work, and I feel like we have plenty of natural resources. It seems to me that we could build housing for everyone, we have the capability to do it. It's just that our economic model isn't about the betterment of manking, providing the people what they need, etc. If you told an unemployed man that he could have guaranteed food, clothing, medical care, lodging and basic income for his family if he goes work a job where he builds houses for other family in need, I think that would be a very appealing offer.
- nico_h 10y ago
  Heck, even if you made that proposition to a fast food worker that he could do meaningful work instead of smelling like fried stuff all the time and always be worried about working enough hours for a crappy boss and no future, or to a janitor that he could help someone instead of cleaning pee all day, maybe they would do that instead. Maybe even to an office drone, who knows. Right now people work because otherwise they die, socially in civilized continental Europe, possibly literally in "modern" America (and possibly the UK).
  - WoodenChair 10y ago
    > Heck, even if you made that proposition to a fast food worker that he could do meaningful work instead of smelling like fried stuff all the time and always be worried about working enough hours for a crappy boss and no future, or to a janitor that he could help someone instead of cleaning pee all day, maybe they would do that instead. Maybe even to an office drone, who knows. You imply that being a fast food worker, janitor, or "office drone" is not meaningful work. To many people it is. Your comment comes across as demeaning.
    - snoman 10y ago
      I'm willing to give GP the benefit of the doubt and was only speaking of the people who don't like, or are not suited for, those positions. I think there's enough people that fit that description in any reasonably sized profession to make it a valid statement in that context.
      - reflexive 10y ago
        Almost by definition, there are aspects of work that you don't like. The trick is to find meaning in your work so that you have the strength to complete it. The post seems to be suggesting that we should just eliminate all of the "least desirable" jobs, which is a fine idea as long as you realize that the next tier of jobs will then immediately become the "least desirable".
        vehementi 10y ago
        No it's just saying some people aren't happy with it and could do something else. Let's not focus on that bit, hey? Let's talk about the main point?
        reflexive 10y ago
        Everyone could be happier doing something else. The main point is: if you want other people to maintain the apartment building where you live, drive you around on the bus, grow your food and deliver it to the supermarket - you need to be prepared to do something useful in return.
- knieveltech 10y ago
  There is no need for additional construction to meet housing demand. In the continental US there are something like 6 empty units for every homeless person in the country. In turn this means there is no pent up demand for building materials, so putting people to work in forestry, quarry, cement, steel, etc is also a non-starter. Global food surplus indicates there is no pressing need to put additional people to work in agriculture. I'm not certain that there is pent up demand for 3.5 million new nannies or therapists in the country, which is a relevant number as that's roughly how many OTR truckers that are on the cusp of losing their livelihoods to automation. There simply isn't enough work to go around.
  - stale2002 10y ago
    There are empty houses, but not in places where people want to live. There is absolutely a housing shortage in popular metropolitan areas (take your pick) . If there wasn't, then prices wouldn't be so high.
    - knieveltech 10y ago
      Popular because people are clumping in areas that have jobs...
      - stale2002 10y ago
        Also because they like those areas? Many people dream of moving to New York. And they would dream that with out without the jobs.
        zardo 10y ago
        It may more or less boil down to lots of movies and television shows being set in New York.
        forgetsusername 10y ago
        >It may more or less boil down to lots of movies and television shows being set in New York Movies and TV shows are filmed in NY because it's a world class, iconic city. It didn't become that because of media.
- mikepurvis 10y ago
  There are a lot of musicians, playwrights, authors, and visual artists of various stripes who would love to practice their craft full time but work crappy jobs to pay the bills. And don't even get me started on large-scale planet-care projects— is there a way we can pay people to reclaim destroyed farmland, to grow things locally and organically, replant forests, study and clean up the ocean garbage patches, etc etc.
JulianMorrison 10y ago
I resent the idea that my surplus labour is anyone's but mine to spend. Certainly you could create infinite amounts of "paid" makework but in the end it amounts to keeping a system going for its own sake, and wasting people's potential by allocating them "dig a hole and fill it in" jobs when they could be being creative.
- aidos 10y ago
  I think you've take the uncharitable view of an implication that everyone is forced to work to fill up hours. Realistically there are loads of things that could be done to make the world a better place. Equally there are lots of people out of work. If someone can provide the funds to marry those things together, it's a win win. But who pays? Maybe Apple could go all philanthropic and depart with all that cash they're carrying.
  - remir 10y ago
    Bingo. It's not a work problem; there's so much work to do. The problem is who will pay and how much.
    - knieveltech 10y ago
      Oh really? Doing what, exactly?
      - robryan 10y ago
        Not hard to imagine that there would be a lot of work out there of marginal economic value but not enough to employ someone at the minimum wage to do.
      - vacri 10y ago
        The original comment suggests a few things.
      - mdpopescu 10y ago
        Feed me grapes?
dpweb 10y ago
There's a great example of this now. Uber drivers. There are a lot of people out there with a lot of free time who are willing to work for very little. Maybe the Govt should make an app that people can use their phone to sign up and do jobs like cleaning up parks etc.. and the Govt can pay them.
- djKianoosh 10y ago
  this would be lovely, but it's utopian. uber drivers drive someone to a place, and if they dont they dont get paid. the sorts of jobs you're talking about arent always all so clearly verified/verifiable. you'd need other government workers just to verify that the job was done properly... ufff I can see the waste now
  - chadscira 10y ago
    Also those jobs wont be around that long. Every year we have quite a bit of progress on Self-Driving Cars.
  - dpweb 10y ago
    Drones verify the leaves were raked etc..
    - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
      Where we reach the singularity not through the progress of machines but by the decline of our own abilities.
    - PeterisP 10y ago
      It's just as hard or possibly even simpler to just make drones that pick up litter and robots that rake leaves. The problem with large scale low skilled jobs (e.g. fast food) becoming automated is that these jobs aren't really special as jobs, even if they have a very important socioeconomic role in our society - it's not yet cost effective to automate them, but when it will, then at the same time (roughly speaking, +/- 10 years) all other low skilled jobs will be ripe for automation as well. A good semi-trailer truck driver will have his job for years to come, but when it does happen, then all the reasonable jobs to which he could currently shift would have their own downsizing due to their own automation and an excessive supply potential workers of poor ex-drivers who were shed years before the good driver.
hardtke 10y ago
The biggest labor need in the next 40 years will be caring for the elderly. When my father was out of the hospital after an operation and needed live in care it was insanely difficult to find at any cost. This is work that cannot be automated.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  After watching Big Hero 6, I'm convinced that even that work could be automated.
  - mac01021 10y ago
    ??? Sarcasm? What in Big Hero Six says anything about the tractability of automating elderly care in the real world?
    - I-M-S 10y ago
      I presume what the poster wanted to say is that BH6 made them believe even robots can look and feel humane (and possibly also that they can be made soft, translating in less injuries for the people they care of)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
hkmurakami 10y ago
This is why Japan is so clean and orderly. Look closer and you'll see someone cleaning some hand railing in the train station in some corner of your peripheral vision.
- varjag 10y ago
  Yes I was stunned to see how much low level and seemingly unnecessary labour there when visited Tokyo. There are people literally inviting you to escalators in the airport. An empty train station would have half a dozen attendants. Road repair, in the middle of the night, 6 people directing foot traffic, with only two (us) pedestrians in sight. This was surprising against the stereotype of machine-based Japanese efficiency. I assume it's some half employment, half social support programme going on.
agumonkey 10y ago
That's one of the odd things about the situation. Lots of unemployed people, lots of things needed, no way to match the two.

freshhawk 10y ago

Seems to me that everyone basically agrees about a subset of the beneficial ways that surplus could be spent. The problem is how society would need to be reorganized to make that happen. There is some concentrated power out there that is very opposed to this kind of change.

tachyonbeam 10y ago

I agree with this sentiment. There is a lot of work that needs doing. There are also a lot of parents out there with young children who could use a nanny. There's a need for more therapists, or just people to talk to. There's a lot of work that needs doing. There's an abundance of people to do the work, and I feel like we have plenty of natural resources. It seems to me that we could build housing for everyone, we have the capability to do it. It's just that our economic model isn't about the betterment of manking, providing the people what they need, etc. If you told an unemployed man that he could have guaranteed food, clothing, medical care, lodging and basic income for his family if he goes work a job where he builds houses for other family in need, I think that would be a very appealing offer.

nico_h 10y ago
Heck, even if you made that proposition to a fast food worker that he could do meaningful work instead of smelling like fried stuff all the time and always be worried about working enough hours for a crappy boss and no future, or to a janitor that he could help someone instead of cleaning pee all day, maybe they would do that instead. Maybe even to an office drone, who knows. Right now people work because otherwise they die, socially in civilized continental Europe, possibly literally in "modern" America (and possibly the UK).
- WoodenChair 10y ago
  > Heck, even if you made that proposition to a fast food worker that he could do meaningful work instead of smelling like fried stuff all the time and always be worried about working enough hours for a crappy boss and no future, or to a janitor that he could help someone instead of cleaning pee all day, maybe they would do that instead. Maybe even to an office drone, who knows. You imply that being a fast food worker, janitor, or "office drone" is not meaningful work. To many people it is. Your comment comes across as demeaning.
  - snoman 10y ago
    I'm willing to give GP the benefit of the doubt and was only speaking of the people who don't like, or are not suited for, those positions. I think there's enough people that fit that description in any reasonably sized profession to make it a valid statement in that context.
    - reflexive 10y ago
      Almost by definition, there are aspects of work that you don't like. The trick is to find meaning in your work so that you have the strength to complete it. The post seems to be suggesting that we should just eliminate all of the "least desirable" jobs, which is a fine idea as long as you realize that the next tier of jobs will then immediately become the "least desirable".
      - vehementi 10y ago
        No it's just saying some people aren't happy with it and could do something else. Let's not focus on that bit, hey? Let's talk about the main point?
        reflexive 10y ago
        Everyone could be happier doing something else. The main point is: if you want other people to maintain the apartment building where you live, drive you around on the bus, grow your food and deliver it to the supermarket - you need to be prepared to do something useful in return.
knieveltech 10y ago
There is no need for additional construction to meet housing demand. In the continental US there are something like 6 empty units for every homeless person in the country. In turn this means there is no pent up demand for building materials, so putting people to work in forestry, quarry, cement, steel, etc is also a non-starter. Global food surplus indicates there is no pressing need to put additional people to work in agriculture. I'm not certain that there is pent up demand for 3.5 million new nannies or therapists in the country, which is a relevant number as that's roughly how many OTR truckers that are on the cusp of losing their livelihoods to automation. There simply isn't enough work to go around.
- stale2002 10y ago
  There are empty houses, but not in places where people want to live. There is absolutely a housing shortage in popular metropolitan areas (take your pick) . If there wasn't, then prices wouldn't be so high.
  - knieveltech 10y ago
    Popular because people are clumping in areas that have jobs...
    - stale2002 10y ago
      Also because they like those areas? Many people dream of moving to New York. And they would dream that with out without the jobs.
      - zardo 10y ago
        It may more or less boil down to lots of movies and television shows being set in New York.
        forgetsusername 10y ago
        >It may more or less boil down to lots of movies and television shows being set in New York Movies and TV shows are filmed in NY because it's a world class, iconic city. It didn't become that because of media.
mikepurvis 10y ago
There are a lot of musicians, playwrights, authors, and visual artists of various stripes who would love to practice their craft full time but work crappy jobs to pay the bills. And don't even get me started on large-scale planet-care projects— is there a way we can pay people to reclaim destroyed farmland, to grow things locally and organically, replant forests, study and clean up the ocean garbage patches, etc etc.

JulianMorrison 10y ago

I resent the idea that my surplus labour is anyone's but mine to spend. Certainly you could create infinite amounts of "paid" makework but in the end it amounts to keeping a system going for its own sake, and wasting people's potential by allocating them "dig a hole and fill it in" jobs when they could be being creative.

aidos 10y ago
I think you've take the uncharitable view of an implication that everyone is forced to work to fill up hours. Realistically there are loads of things that could be done to make the world a better place. Equally there are lots of people out of work. If someone can provide the funds to marry those things together, it's a win win. But who pays? Maybe Apple could go all philanthropic and depart with all that cash they're carrying.
- remir 10y ago
  Bingo. It's not a work problem; there's so much work to do. The problem is who will pay and how much.
  - knieveltech 10y ago
    Oh really? Doing what, exactly?
    - robryan 10y ago
      Not hard to imagine that there would be a lot of work out there of marginal economic value but not enough to employ someone at the minimum wage to do.
    - vacri 10y ago
      The original comment suggests a few things.
    - mdpopescu 10y ago
      Feed me grapes?

dpweb 10y ago

There's a great example of this now. Uber drivers. There are a lot of people out there with a lot of free time who are willing to work for very little. Maybe the Govt should make an app that people can use their phone to sign up and do jobs like cleaning up parks etc.. and the Govt can pay them.

djKianoosh 10y ago
this would be lovely, but it's utopian. uber drivers drive someone to a place, and if they dont they dont get paid. the sorts of jobs you're talking about arent always all so clearly verified/verifiable. you'd need other government workers just to verify that the job was done properly... ufff I can see the waste now
- chadscira 10y ago
  Also those jobs wont be around that long. Every year we have quite a bit of progress on Self-Driving Cars.
- dpweb 10y ago
  Drones verify the leaves were raked etc..
  - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
    Where we reach the singularity not through the progress of machines but by the decline of our own abilities.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    It's just as hard or possibly even simpler to just make drones that pick up litter and robots that rake leaves. The problem with large scale low skilled jobs (e.g. fast food) becoming automated is that these jobs aren't really special as jobs, even if they have a very important socioeconomic role in our society - it's not yet cost effective to automate them, but when it will, then at the same time (roughly speaking, +/- 10 years) all other low skilled jobs will be ripe for automation as well. A good semi-trailer truck driver will have his job for years to come, but when it does happen, then all the reasonable jobs to which he could currently shift would have their own downsizing due to their own automation and an excessive supply potential workers of poor ex-drivers who were shed years before the good driver.

hardtke 10y ago

The biggest labor need in the next 40 years will be caring for the elderly. When my father was out of the hospital after an operation and needed live in care it was insanely difficult to find at any cost. This is work that cannot be automated.

guitarbill 10y ago
After watching Big Hero 6, I'm convinced that even that work could be automated.
- mac01021 10y ago
  ??? Sarcasm? What in Big Hero Six says anything about the tractability of automating elderly care in the real world?
  - I-M-S 10y ago
    I presume what the poster wanted to say is that BH6 made them believe even robots can look and feel humane (and possibly also that they can be made soft, translating in less injuries for the people they care of)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

hkmurakami 10y ago

This is why Japan is so clean and orderly. Look closer and you'll see someone cleaning some hand railing in the train station in some corner of your peripheral vision.

varjag 10y ago
Yes I was stunned to see how much low level and seemingly unnecessary labour there when visited Tokyo. There are people literally inviting you to escalators in the airport. An empty train station would have half a dozen attendants. Road repair, in the middle of the night, 6 people directing foot traffic, with only two (us) pedestrians in sight. This was surprising against the stereotype of machine-based Japanese efficiency. I assume it's some half employment, half social support programme going on.

agumonkey 10y ago

That's one of the odd things about the situation. Lots of unemployed people, lots of things needed, no way to match the two.