6 ms·

So you're saying there's no way to reach post-labour before post-scarcity? Hmm, that's interesting, I hope it's not true.

atemerev 10y ago
How it could be not true? What is "fair" income in scarcity?
- henrikschroder 10y ago
  I can imagine a future where the basic standard of living for everyone is like what we give senior citizens today. Everyone is clothed, fed, has a roof over their heads, and has access to medical care. But if you want more than basic, then you have to perform labour of some sort. Want to take the trip to Mars? Gotta work for it. Yes, there will be a difference between those who labour and those who don't, but I still think it would be a huge win if noone in society would ever struggle to put food on their table. There's a struggle between retired pensioners and everyone else in society about how much retired citizens should get, but there's still an understanding on both sides that past labour has some value, but that that value is less than present labour, so there's a balance. I hope the same would be true in a post-labour society. And, of course, the difference between the labourers and the not-labourers would be an incentive to reach post-scarcity where that difference is wiped out.
  - id 10y ago
    > I can imagine a future where the basic standard of living for everyone is like what we give senior citizens today. Everyone is clothed, fed, has a roof over their heads, and has access to medical care. This is already a reality in many countries. It would be very easy to also make it a reality in the US. The resources are there.
    - atemerev 10y ago
      They are not. Even for the senior citizens — existing pension systems are on the verge of collapse already.
crdoconnor 10y ago
I'm saying that austerity is being disguised as near-post-scarcity. Jobs are hard to come by in the US at the same time that infrastructure is crumbling. That's a lack of jobs not a lack of necessary work.
- Practicality 10y ago
  Very true: http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/
- henrikschroder 10y ago
  Got it. It's a pretty flimsy disguise though. If people are simultaneously complaining about bad infrastructure and high taxes, then they are simply saying that they want their earned money themselves more than they want to use it for shared infrastructure projects. People would just rather have the latest iPhone than good highways. :-/
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    >If people are simultaneously complaining about bad infrastructure and high taxes, then they are simply saying that they want their earned money themselves more than they want to use it for shared infrastructure projects. Sure, and the American people picked Trump as leader because they thought he was the most qualified person in the entire country.
    - henrikschroder 10y ago
      I know you're being glib, but a lot of people voting for him actually hold this to be true. He is successful, therefore he is competent.
- nico_h 10y ago
  It's a lack of political will to enforce the deal between the state and corporation (edit: and citizens). Governments grant tax cuts to corporations (edit: and citizens), even thought it hurts the very infrastructure and society that enabled corporations to extract the money from the environment. The current taxation systems nowhere pays for all the externalities. If a company made a dollar in a country, a fair share of it should get back to the state for providing the environment that made it possible. Education, security, infrastructure.
stale2002 10y ago
There certainly is! Prices for goods just need to keep dropping, as they have already been doing to. If they keep dropping, then our existing welfare system will handle the rest. If the percent money that society spends in welfare state the same, and goods get cheaper and cheaper, then that means that living off welfare will eventually be a pretty sweet deal, able to provide all your wants and needs.
- clarry 10y ago
  There are more goods than just smartphones. Arguably more important ones too. Rent, food, energy, all the things you need to live are getting more expensive with inflation. The welfare system is lagging behind and the benefits need to be bumped a little every year or so or it gets harder and harder to live on them. Unfortunately we apparently can't always seem to afford to increase the benefits. For instance student benefits in Finland were "cut" by simply not increasing them in accordance with the index.

atemerev 10y ago

How it could be not true? What is "fair" income in scarcity?

henrikschroder 10y ago
I can imagine a future where the basic standard of living for everyone is like what we give senior citizens today. Everyone is clothed, fed, has a roof over their heads, and has access to medical care. But if you want more than basic, then you have to perform labour of some sort. Want to take the trip to Mars? Gotta work for it. Yes, there will be a difference between those who labour and those who don't, but I still think it would be a huge win if noone in society would ever struggle to put food on their table. There's a struggle between retired pensioners and everyone else in society about how much retired citizens should get, but there's still an understanding on both sides that past labour has some value, but that that value is less than present labour, so there's a balance. I hope the same would be true in a post-labour society. And, of course, the difference between the labourers and the not-labourers would be an incentive to reach post-scarcity where that difference is wiped out.
- id 10y ago
  > I can imagine a future where the basic standard of living for everyone is like what we give senior citizens today. Everyone is clothed, fed, has a roof over their heads, and has access to medical care. This is already a reality in many countries. It would be very easy to also make it a reality in the US. The resources are there.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    They are not. Even for the senior citizens — existing pension systems are on the verge of collapse already.

crdoconnor 10y ago

I'm saying that austerity is being disguised as near-post-scarcity. Jobs are hard to come by in the US at the same time that infrastructure is crumbling. That's a lack of jobs not a lack of necessary work.

Practicality 10y ago
Very true: http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/
henrikschroder 10y ago
Got it. It's a pretty flimsy disguise though. If people are simultaneously complaining about bad infrastructure and high taxes, then they are simply saying that they want their earned money themselves more than they want to use it for shared infrastructure projects. People would just rather have the latest iPhone than good highways. :-/
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  >If people are simultaneously complaining about bad infrastructure and high taxes, then they are simply saying that they want their earned money themselves more than they want to use it for shared infrastructure projects. Sure, and the American people picked Trump as leader because they thought he was the most qualified person in the entire country.
  - henrikschroder 10y ago
    I know you're being glib, but a lot of people voting for him actually hold this to be true. He is successful, therefore he is competent.
nico_h 10y ago
It's a lack of political will to enforce the deal between the state and corporation (edit: and citizens). Governments grant tax cuts to corporations (edit: and citizens), even thought it hurts the very infrastructure and society that enabled corporations to extract the money from the environment. The current taxation systems nowhere pays for all the externalities. If a company made a dollar in a country, a fair share of it should get back to the state for providing the environment that made it possible. Education, security, infrastructure.

stale2002 10y ago

There certainly is! Prices for goods just need to keep dropping, as they have already been doing to. If they keep dropping, then our existing welfare system will handle the rest. If the percent money that society spends in welfare state the same, and goods get cheaper and cheaper, then that means that living off welfare will eventually be a pretty sweet deal, able to provide all your wants and needs.

clarry 10y ago
There are more goods than just smartphones. Arguably more important ones too. Rent, food, energy, all the things you need to live are getting more expensive with inflation. The welfare system is lagging behind and the benefits need to be bumped a little every year or so or it gets harder and harder to live on them. Unfortunately we apparently can't always seem to afford to increase the benefits. For instance student benefits in Finland were "cut" by simply not increasing them in accordance with the index.