6 ms·

As much as I would like it for electric cars to be commonplace, I think there are bigger hurdles. Free charging stations are going to be less appealing when yo

by bonzini 10y ago

As much as I would like it for electric cars to be commonplace, I think there are bigger hurdles. Free charging stations are going to be less appealing when you have hundreds of cars recharging every hour, not to mention the increased space requirements because a car takes 2-4 minutes to refuel but 30 minutes to refill the battery. Someone will have to pay for the price of energy and infrastructure (don't say the government will: actually they make a lot of money on gasoline and diesel, at least in Europe, and they will have to recoup that too!). And right now one of Tesla's selling point is the free recharging stations. The charging time itself is an issue. It's a real pity that Tesla's battery swap stations programme was halted. If you're traveling with two kids you certainly don't want to waste half an hour while they're both asleep just to charge the battery... :-) Scaling production and having a compelling product is already hard enough, and Tesla's being excellent at that, but scaling the infrastructure for consumers is a whole different business.

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
Tesla is already beginning to end free charging. Any car ordered after 31/12/2016 will be limited to 400 kWh (~1000 miles) of free charging per year, after that you have to pay. 1000 miles is around 10% of the distance most cars go in a year. And reserved != ordered, so this limit applies to all Model 3s.
- eridius 10y ago
  > 1000 miles is around 10% of the distance most cars go in a year. Comparing usage of the supercharger network to the total amount driven by the car in a year doesn't make much sense. You only need the supercharger network when going a long distance; otherwise, you can charge at home or perhaps at work.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    Exactly. But when it's free, people do crazy things like queue for half an hour to charge at a supercharger even though they could easily charge at home. I think this is the primary motivation of the new rules, to restrict supercharger use to those actually needing it.
    - eridius 10y ago
      I heard (secondhand info and all that) that there's some taxi startup somewhere that is using all Teslas, but instead of approaching Tesla about installing superchargers for their own use[1], they decided to just use the existing public superchargers, tying them up and creating long delays for anyone else who wants to use them. So it seems that this new rule is meant to combat that type of behavior. [1] Apparently companies can approach Tesla about installing their own private superchargers, though I don't know the details.
      - umeshunni 10y ago
        They're 'Tesloop', based in LA. I've seen complaints on the Tesla forums from LA area Tesla owners about how they keep hogging up the chargers. E.g Charging for Supercharging Won't Deter Local Fleet Operators https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5bonff/charging_for_supercharging_wont_deter_local_fleet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5bonff/chargin...
greenhatman 10y ago
Many people will probably only seldomly need to charge at stations, as they'd probably charge their batteries at home each night. Many office parking places will probably have charging stations as well.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
greglindahl 10y ago
Tesla discontinued battery swap because people do prefer to spend 1/2 hour charging, even when traveling with sleeping children. Note that this is only an issue for long-distance travel; for day-to-day driving, most people will charge in their garage, their apartment's garage, or at a street-side charger.
- bonzini 10y ago
  Well, there was one battery swap station, and you had to book it and pay for it. Not exactly encouraging. Who is going to scale the street-side charger network? In Europe, a lot of cars are parked outdoors during the night. In smaller towns, parking spots around residential areas aren't even painted. Many other cars are parked in shared garages that don't guarantee one plug per car. I guess garage owners could install the chargers (but that would be hundreds of kW if electric cars were really commonplace---that is expensive infrastructure) and meters, but still it's hard to reach critical mass.
  - greglindahl 10y ago
    I'm not sure how to reply, given that the things you say are hard are beginning to happen already.
    - bonzini 10y ago
      In a handful of big metropolitan areas. Good luck doing that throughout multiple continents. Most European countries are still on the order of magnitude of 1000 total EVs sold per year. Growing, sure, but still hardly a serious market penetration. And I am talking about problems with scaling: "beginning to happen" and "available for everyone who needs it" is not the same as "available for everyone". Installing a dozen chargers, unused most of the time, in a shopping mall's 1000-car parking lot is not the same as installing a few hundred chargers in a multistorey parking downtown that previously only needed to power some neons.
      - mseebach 10y ago
Reason077 10y ago
If you're traveling with two kids you certainly don't want to waste half an hour while they're both asleep just to charge the battery... :-) Supercharging time is almost never wasted. You (and the kids) need a break after 3-4 hours on the road anyway. Quite often, in my experience, the car is recharged and ready to go well before the occupants are!
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  I don't think you'd ever want to take a road trip with me. One of the big reasons I bought a VW TDI is that I can go for 8+ hours without stopping at all.
  - victorhooi 10y ago
    I hope you are exaggerating. Otherwise I don't think I want to be on the same highway as you either. People like you are a hazard on the road. Driver fatigue is a real thing - and saying you can go 8 hours without stopping isn't a testament to how awesome you are - it's a testament to how little you care about others sharing the road with you. Some people think they have super-human reflexes, or are immune to fatigue, or have trained themselves to task with a phone and driving. Most of these people are wrong. Chances are, you are just an ordinary driver - and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm more than willing to admit I'm an average driver - and so I will take breaks, or forgo using the phone, or drive slower to compensate for that. Yes, sometimes I do drive poorly (sleep deprived, stressed, or in a rush) - but I'm never going to claim I can go 8 hours without a break. That's going a bit far.
    - slededit 10y ago
      Truck drivers are allowed to drive 8 hours without breaks. I suspect most of them do.
  - mohaine 10y ago
    Very few people what to go 8 hours without a break.
- 10y ago
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
"The charging time itself is an issue" I've thought about this, and I disagree. I think driving habits - and fueling stations - will simply change along with it. Truck stops are especially experienced with this. Older pumps can take a good while to fill the tanks. Improvements were made so they are faster, but they are still slow compared to cars. Hence the tendency to have a bit of shopping and food at a good number of fueling stations. For passenger cars, this can turn into a number of things. Entertainment places, coffee shops, and the like fit in well here - as do fast food with play areas and other such things.
- jdminhbg 10y ago
  This will take time, but I think it's right. If you are charging your car overnight, the only time you'll need to charge mid-trip is on long-distance trips. If you're driving 10 hrs, you'll need to take an hour-plus break sometime in the middle of it regardless.

by bonzini 10y ago

semi-extrinsic 10y ago

Tesla is already beginning to end free charging. Any car ordered after 31/12/2016 will be limited to 400 kWh (~1000 miles) of free charging per year, after that you have to pay. 1000 miles is around 10% of the distance most cars go in a year. And reserved != ordered, so this limit applies to all Model 3s.

eridius 10y ago
> 1000 miles is around 10% of the distance most cars go in a year. Comparing usage of the supercharger network to the total amount driven by the car in a year doesn't make much sense. You only need the supercharger network when going a long distance; otherwise, you can charge at home or perhaps at work.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  Exactly. But when it's free, people do crazy things like queue for half an hour to charge at a supercharger even though they could easily charge at home. I think this is the primary motivation of the new rules, to restrict supercharger use to those actually needing it.
  - eridius 10y ago
    I heard (secondhand info and all that) that there's some taxi startup somewhere that is using all Teslas, but instead of approaching Tesla about installing superchargers for their own use[1], they decided to just use the existing public superchargers, tying them up and creating long delays for anyone else who wants to use them. So it seems that this new rule is meant to combat that type of behavior. [1] Apparently companies can approach Tesla about installing their own private superchargers, though I don't know the details.
    - umeshunni 10y ago
      They're 'Tesloop', based in LA. I've seen complaints on the Tesla forums from LA area Tesla owners about how they keep hogging up the chargers. E.g Charging for Supercharging Won't Deter Local Fleet Operators https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5bonff/charging_for_supercharging_wont_deter_local_fleet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5bonff/chargin...

greenhatman 10y ago

Many people will probably only seldomly need to charge at stations, as they'd probably charge their batteries at home each night. Many office parking places will probably have charging stations as well.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

greglindahl 10y ago

Tesla discontinued battery swap because people do prefer to spend 1/2 hour charging, even when traveling with sleeping children. Note that this is only an issue for long-distance travel; for day-to-day driving, most people will charge in their garage, their apartment's garage, or at a street-side charger.

bonzini 10y ago
Well, there was one battery swap station, and you had to book it and pay for it. Not exactly encouraging. Who is going to scale the street-side charger network? In Europe, a lot of cars are parked outdoors during the night. In smaller towns, parking spots around residential areas aren't even painted. Many other cars are parked in shared garages that don't guarantee one plug per car. I guess garage owners could install the chargers (but that would be hundreds of kW if electric cars were really commonplace---that is expensive infrastructure) and meters, but still it's hard to reach critical mass.
- greglindahl 10y ago
  I'm not sure how to reply, given that the things you say are hard are beginning to happen already.
  - bonzini 10y ago
    In a handful of big metropolitan areas. Good luck doing that throughout multiple continents. Most European countries are still on the order of magnitude of 1000 total EVs sold per year. Growing, sure, but still hardly a serious market penetration. And I am talking about problems with scaling: "beginning to happen" and "available for everyone who needs it" is not the same as "available for everyone". Installing a dozen chargers, unused most of the time, in a shopping mall's 1000-car parking lot is not the same as installing a few hundred chargers in a multistorey parking downtown that previously only needed to power some neons.
    - mseebach 10y ago

Reason077 10y ago

If you're traveling with two kids you certainly don't want to waste half an hour while they're both asleep just to charge the battery... :-) Supercharging time is almost never wasted. You (and the kids) need a break after 3-4 hours on the road anyway. Quite often, in my experience, the car is recharged and ready to go well before the occupants are!

vonmoltke 10y ago
I don't think you'd ever want to take a road trip with me. One of the big reasons I bought a VW TDI is that I can go for 8+ hours without stopping at all.
- victorhooi 10y ago
  I hope you are exaggerating. Otherwise I don't think I want to be on the same highway as you either. People like you are a hazard on the road. Driver fatigue is a real thing - and saying you can go 8 hours without stopping isn't a testament to how awesome you are - it's a testament to how little you care about others sharing the road with you. Some people think they have super-human reflexes, or are immune to fatigue, or have trained themselves to task with a phone and driving. Most of these people are wrong. Chances are, you are just an ordinary driver - and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm more than willing to admit I'm an average driver - and so I will take breaks, or forgo using the phone, or drive slower to compensate for that. Yes, sometimes I do drive poorly (sleep deprived, stressed, or in a rush) - but I'm never going to claim I can go 8 hours without a break. That's going a bit far.
  - slededit 10y ago
    Truck drivers are allowed to drive 8 hours without breaks. I suspect most of them do.
- mohaine 10y ago
  Very few people what to go 8 hours without a break.
10y ago

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

"The charging time itself is an issue" I've thought about this, and I disagree. I think driving habits - and fueling stations - will simply change along with it. Truck stops are especially experienced with this. Older pumps can take a good while to fill the tanks. Improvements were made so they are faster, but they are still slow compared to cars. Hence the tendency to have a bit of shopping and food at a good number of fueling stations. For passenger cars, this can turn into a number of things. Entertainment places, coffee shops, and the like fit in well here - as do fast food with play areas and other such things.

jdminhbg 10y ago
This will take time, but I think it's right. If you are charging your car overnight, the only time you'll need to charge mid-trip is on long-distance trips. If you're driving 10 hrs, you'll need to take an hour-plus break sometime in the middle of it regardless.