4 ms·

Wind power isn't doing very well here in Finland though. It is 100% propped up by subsidies. The government will pay them 85,30 €/MWh for the electricity gener

by doikor 10y ago

Wind power isn't doing very well here in Finland though. It is 100% propped up by subsidies. The government will pay them 85,30 €/MWh for the electricity generated by wind power even though the market price is somewhere around 30 €/MWh so they basically get more from subsidies then from the electricity they actually sell. The current projection is that with the current subsidies wind power will have cost the tax payer around 3 billion euros by 2030. Though the True Finns have a very wrong approach to this (trying to ban building wind power because it causes "harm" to people and other unscientific bullshit) instead of just dismantling the harmful subsidies (or at least lowering them to something sensible). Or the most sensible approach of taxing the things we don't want (polluting energy. coal etc.) and let the free markets sort the rest out.

biehl 10y ago
The (spot)-market price on Nordpool is mostly related to variable costs, and doesn't really cover construction and other fixed costs. That energy generators need a higer price than spot-price doesn't really warrant calling it "subsidies". In Denmark land-wind is the cheapest (LCOE) energy.
- doikor 10y ago
  Ok but why are we building nuclear power with 100% private money and subsidise wind? It literally makes no sense. The system should work the other way. Tax what we don't want and let the free markets work the rest out. Now we are grossly propping up a form of electricity that doesn't work very well here in Finland. If we can do multi billion euro nuclear power projects with private money in other energy production ways why can't the wind? As a side note the guaranteed price ends after 12 years. Do you know what happened when the first wind company that got to that 12 years did? It went bankrupt the same day. There is literally no way they can compete with the other wind power companies that get the subsidy. Basically we are going to get a nice "start wind power company" -> "take subsidies for 12 years" -> "go bankrupt" -> "start a new one" loop.
  - biehl 10y ago
    Finland doesn't guarantee prices for nuclear for some period? That sounds unlikely. The Hinkley Point plant in the UK was recently guaranteed a very high "strike price" to get it built https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_... And those "subsidies" are free market! In Denmark power generators submit competing bids on the lowest required guaranteed price when building new wind power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horns_Rev#Horns_Rev_3_offshore_wind_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horns_Rev#Horns_Rev_3_offshore...
    - doikor 10y ago
      No we don't. The heavy industrial corporations and some of the larger energy corps got together and formed a company called TVO. TVO got a few billion euros of loan and started to build nuclear plants (the current one under construction is Olkiluoto Unit 3). Only subsidy I know of is for the insurance in case of a nuclear accident. Though TVO already owns Olkiluoto 1 and 2. As I understand the third reactor on the same site doesn't have any effect on the insurance. The nuclear plants in Finland are built for a real need (cheaper electricity) without any viable alternatives if we want to limit reliance to other countries (ask the east block countries how fun it is to rely on Russian gas for your electricity/heating during the winter). In some countries you would probably use coal or gas but as Finland doesn't have any of those (literally 0 natural gas, oil or coal reserves) we have had to rely on nuclear (for which we have fuels to burn in the bedrock). We have already built dams pretty much everywhere we can so hydro cannot be expanded in any meaningful way. Solar and wind just don't work as baseline power for heavy industry in Finland (at least not yet. The battery technology just isn't there). Solar is useless during the winter and wind has too much variance. Also due to the delays in construction of the new reactor (thanks Areva and Siemens) we have been very close to actually running out of power (with the connections to Sweden and Russia maxed out) and have had to resort to reserve gas power plants with MWh prices in the hundreds of euros as most plans for the grid have included the new reactor being done in time. In Finland the subsidies for wind power is just flat selling price into the grid. You can take subsidy on building too but then you cannot get the one for selling electricity (which is much better with the current prices)

by doikor 10y ago

biehl 10y ago

The (spot)-market price on Nordpool is mostly related to variable costs, and doesn't really cover construction and other fixed costs. That energy generators need a higer price than spot-price doesn't really warrant calling it "subsidies". In Denmark land-wind is the cheapest (LCOE) energy.

doikor 10y ago
Ok but why are we building nuclear power with 100% private money and subsidise wind? It literally makes no sense. The system should work the other way. Tax what we don't want and let the free markets work the rest out. Now we are grossly propping up a form of electricity that doesn't work very well here in Finland. If we can do multi billion euro nuclear power projects with private money in other energy production ways why can't the wind? As a side note the guaranteed price ends after 12 years. Do you know what happened when the first wind company that got to that 12 years did? It went bankrupt the same day. There is literally no way they can compete with the other wind power companies that get the subsidy. Basically we are going to get a nice "start wind power company" -> "take subsidies for 12 years" -> "go bankrupt" -> "start a new one" loop.
- biehl 10y ago
  Finland doesn't guarantee prices for nuclear for some period? That sounds unlikely. The Hinkley Point plant in the UK was recently guaranteed a very high "strike price" to get it built https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_... And those "subsidies" are free market! In Denmark power generators submit competing bids on the lowest required guaranteed price when building new wind power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horns_Rev#Horns_Rev_3_offshore_wind_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horns_Rev#Horns_Rev_3_offshore...
  - doikor 10y ago
    No we don't. The heavy industrial corporations and some of the larger energy corps got together and formed a company called TVO. TVO got a few billion euros of loan and started to build nuclear plants (the current one under construction is Olkiluoto Unit 3). Only subsidy I know of is for the insurance in case of a nuclear accident. Though TVO already owns Olkiluoto 1 and 2. As I understand the third reactor on the same site doesn't have any effect on the insurance. The nuclear plants in Finland are built for a real need (cheaper electricity) without any viable alternatives if we want to limit reliance to other countries (ask the east block countries how fun it is to rely on Russian gas for your electricity/heating during the winter). In some countries you would probably use coal or gas but as Finland doesn't have any of those (literally 0 natural gas, oil or coal reserves) we have had to rely on nuclear (for which we have fuels to burn in the bedrock). We have already built dams pretty much everywhere we can so hydro cannot be expanded in any meaningful way. Solar and wind just don't work as baseline power for heavy industry in Finland (at least not yet. The battery technology just isn't there). Solar is useless during the winter and wind has too much variance. Also due to the delays in construction of the new reactor (thanks Areva and Siemens) we have been very close to actually running out of power (with the connections to Sweden and Russia maxed out) and have had to resort to reserve gas power plants with MWh prices in the hundreds of euros as most plans for the grid have included the new reactor being done in time. In Finland the subsidies for wind power is just flat selling price into the grid. You can take subsidy on building too but then you cannot get the one for selling electricity (which is much better with the current prices)