6 ms·

Also, it's important to remember the electricity is a small proportion of total energy use, which is dominated by heating and transport; heating's usually gas o

Also, it's important to remember the electricity is a small proportion of total energy use, which is dominated by heating and transport; heating's usually gas or heavy fuel oil, transport is usually petrol or diesel. And by 'dominated', I mean about 2/3 of all energy use goes towards it. Yes, migrating to electric heating and transport is possible. Over-unity fuel pumps are teh awesome, and electric transport is almost workable (but not quite yet for anything more than short distances); but we're still going to be talking about a massive increase in electricity consumption, and most countries' electrical grids can't handle that. So, I agree with you --- coal is foul stuff, it needs to die, this is an all senses a good thing; but it's still just a small step on the path to getting off fossil fuels.

tremon 10y ago
electric transport is almost workable By this I guess you mean electric road transport? Because we've had electrified rail for quite some time now.
thatfrenchguy 10y ago
>electric transport is almost workable (but not quite yet for anything more than short distances) You mean in use in every single country for trains since the 60s ?
- craigds 10y ago
  Auckland NZ was using diesel trains until 2015
  - knz 10y ago
    Wellington has been electric for decades hasn't it? I think they even used to have electric buses running on overhead wires.
    - billforsternz 10y ago
      In Wellington our commuter trains have always been electric. Auckland has finally caught up :) We still have electric trolley buses, but sadly their days are numbered. Apparently keeping up the overhead electric infrastructure is too expensive.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    Pretty sure we still are as I recently saw some down at at the port. We love to point out that Auckland is actually ahead as we have the most x per capita. A Reddit thread on this phenomenon recently concluded that Auckland has the most per capita per capita.
- K0nserv 10y ago
  As a Swede I was shocked when I moved to Scotland and found out that they have a lot of diesel trains.
  - snaily 10y ago
    Sweden has a whole bunch of not-yet-electrified lines - just not where most people are: http://www.jarnvag.net/component/customproperties/tag?cp[omrade][0]=gotaland&cp[omrade][1]=svealand&cp[omrade][2]=norrland&cp[omrade][3]=&cp[sparvidd][0]=1435_mm&cp[sparvidd][1]=891_mm&cp[sparvidd][2]=600_mm&cp[sparvidd][3]=&cp[trafik][0]=persontrafik&cp[trafik][1]=godstrafik&cp[trafik][2]=&cp[elektrifierad][0]=oelektrifierad&cp[elektrifierad][1]=&cp[bind_to_category]=content:26,content:31,content:36 http://www.jarnvag.net/component/customproperties/tag?cp[omr...
    - K0nserv 10y ago
      Yeah I probably have some confirmation bias having travelled mainly inside the Stockholm/Sörmland region and from Stockholm to Gothenburg. I was very surprised to see that Edinburgh to Glasgow is not electrified for example.
      - Reason077 10y ago
        Work to electrify Edinburgh to Glasgow is already in progress. Electric trains will be running by 2017. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_to_Glasgow_Improvement_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_to_Glasgow_Improveme...
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    You have diesel trains in Sweden too. On small lines like Kristinahamn to Ludvika and in the north. Various places where there is too little traffic to make it economic to electrify. Same here in Norway in the north.
    - vidarh 10y ago
      The difference in the UK is that significant, high traffic lines are still diesel as well. The Great Western [1] line from London to the west of England and South Wales is a good example that is finally being electrified, but is still years behind schedule. The UK is still catching up after decades of underinvestment in rail infrastructure. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Main_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Main_Line
- david-given 10y ago
  Sorry, my bad: I mean road transport. Electric trains work really well, and there should be more of them. (I live in Zurich now. Every time I go back to Britain I look at a diesel train and think 'how quaint.') But there's an awful lot of bulk transport that still goes by road.
- doikor 10y ago
  We (Finns) still use diesel engines for the more remote/less used lines. Mostly for industry or seasonal routes (think lapland during the winter etc.). Just not economically feasible to electrify all the less used routes.
TorKlingberg 10y ago
If Finland is anything like Sweden, most heating is either electric, increasingly with heat pumps, or municipal central heating. The latter is often from gas or oil fired plants, but can be replaced with bio-fuels, garbage incineration or industrial waste heat if available.
- dancek 10y ago
  Indeed. Most apartment buildings and some houses in cities use municipal central heating. Otherwise it's common to have electrical heating (though older houses sometimes use oil), and people tend to heat with wood stoves in addition.
HerraBRE 10y ago
Instead of "fuel pumps", did you mean "heat pumps"?
- david-given 10y ago
  I did, yeah, sorry.
rebuilder 10y ago
Here's the government's current projection for total energy consumption in Finland between 2015 and 2030 (if the link works): http://www.hs.fi/webkuva/taysi/560/1479969511874?ts=73 http://www.hs.fi/webkuva/taysi/560/1479969511874?ts=73 It's in Finnish I'm afraid. The legend from top to bottom is as follows (sorry, some terms used are unfamiliar to me): -Oil, incl. biocomponent (?? Biodiesel etc?) -coal -Coke, incl. gas -Natural gas -Nuclear energy -Net electric import -Hydroelectric -Wind- and solar power -Peat -Wood fuels -Other Basically the changes vs. today seem to be: -roughly 5-7% increase in total energy consumption -Cessation of coal use and net electricity imports -The above are mainly compensated for by increased reliance on nuclear power and wood fuels. -In percentage terms, solar and wind are projected to increase significantly, but total contribution in 2030 is still projected to be quite small.
tappio 10y ago
"heating is usually gas or heavy fuel ois" is actually false. In fact, over 60% of heating in Finland was produced with renewable energy. Majority of the industrial and district heating is produced with wood and other industrial wood-based excess materials.

tremon 10y ago

electric transport is almost workable By this I guess you mean electric road transport? Because we've had electrified rail for quite some time now.

thatfrenchguy 10y ago

>electric transport is almost workable (but not quite yet for anything more than short distances) You mean in use in every single country for trains since the 60s ?

craigds 10y ago
Auckland NZ was using diesel trains until 2015
- knz 10y ago
  Wellington has been electric for decades hasn't it? I think they even used to have electric buses running on overhead wires.
  - billforsternz 10y ago
    In Wellington our commuter trains have always been electric. Auckland has finally caught up :) We still have electric trolley buses, but sadly their days are numbered. Apparently keeping up the overhead electric infrastructure is too expensive.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  Pretty sure we still are as I recently saw some down at at the port. We love to point out that Auckland is actually ahead as we have the most x per capita. A Reddit thread on this phenomenon recently concluded that Auckland has the most per capita per capita.
K0nserv 10y ago
As a Swede I was shocked when I moved to Scotland and found out that they have a lot of diesel trains.
- snaily 10y ago
  Sweden has a whole bunch of not-yet-electrified lines - just not where most people are: http://www.jarnvag.net/component/customproperties/tag?cp[omrade][0]=gotaland&cp[omrade][1]=svealand&cp[omrade][2]=norrland&cp[omrade][3]=&cp[sparvidd][0]=1435_mm&cp[sparvidd][1]=891_mm&cp[sparvidd][2]=600_mm&cp[sparvidd][3]=&cp[trafik][0]=persontrafik&cp[trafik][1]=godstrafik&cp[trafik][2]=&cp[elektrifierad][0]=oelektrifierad&cp[elektrifierad][1]=&cp[bind_to_category]=content:26,content:31,content:36 http://www.jarnvag.net/component/customproperties/tag?cp[omr...
  - K0nserv 10y ago
    Yeah I probably have some confirmation bias having travelled mainly inside the Stockholm/Sörmland region and from Stockholm to Gothenburg. I was very surprised to see that Edinburgh to Glasgow is not electrified for example.
    - Reason077 10y ago
      Work to electrify Edinburgh to Glasgow is already in progress. Electric trains will be running by 2017. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_to_Glasgow_Improvement_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_to_Glasgow_Improveme...
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  You have diesel trains in Sweden too. On small lines like Kristinahamn to Ludvika and in the north. Various places where there is too little traffic to make it economic to electrify. Same here in Norway in the north.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    The difference in the UK is that significant, high traffic lines are still diesel as well. The Great Western [1] line from London to the west of England and South Wales is a good example that is finally being electrified, but is still years behind schedule. The UK is still catching up after decades of underinvestment in rail infrastructure. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Main_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Main_Line
david-given 10y ago
Sorry, my bad: I mean road transport. Electric trains work really well, and there should be more of them. (I live in Zurich now. Every time I go back to Britain I look at a diesel train and think 'how quaint.') But there's an awful lot of bulk transport that still goes by road.
doikor 10y ago
We (Finns) still use diesel engines for the more remote/less used lines. Mostly for industry or seasonal routes (think lapland during the winter etc.). Just not economically feasible to electrify all the less used routes.

TorKlingberg 10y ago

If Finland is anything like Sweden, most heating is either electric, increasingly with heat pumps, or municipal central heating. The latter is often from gas or oil fired plants, but can be replaced with bio-fuels, garbage incineration or industrial waste heat if available.

dancek 10y ago
Indeed. Most apartment buildings and some houses in cities use municipal central heating. Otherwise it's common to have electrical heating (though older houses sometimes use oil), and people tend to heat with wood stoves in addition.

HerraBRE 10y ago

Instead of "fuel pumps", did you mean "heat pumps"?

david-given 10y ago
I did, yeah, sorry.

rebuilder 10y ago

Here's the government's current projection for total energy consumption in Finland between 2015 and 2030 (if the link works): http://www.hs.fi/webkuva/taysi/560/1479969511874?ts=73 http://www.hs.fi/webkuva/taysi/560/1479969511874?ts=73 It's in Finnish I'm afraid. The legend from top to bottom is as follows (sorry, some terms used are unfamiliar to me): -Oil, incl. biocomponent (?? Biodiesel etc?) -coal -Coke, incl. gas -Natural gas -Nuclear energy -Net electric import -Hydroelectric -Wind- and solar power -Peat -Wood fuels -Other Basically the changes vs. today seem to be: -roughly 5-7% increase in total energy consumption -Cessation of coal use and net electricity imports -The above are mainly compensated for by increased reliance on nuclear power and wood fuels. -In percentage terms, solar and wind are projected to increase significantly, but total contribution in 2030 is still projected to be quite small.

tappio 10y ago

"heating is usually gas or heavy fuel ois" is actually false. In fact, over 60% of heating in Finland was produced with renewable energy. Majority of the industrial and district heating is produced with wood and other industrial wood-based excess materials.