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Another traditional US ally re-aligning itself between the two major spheres of influence. The balance will tip further in China's favor as the USA recedes furt

by nikcub 10y ago

Another traditional US ally re-aligning itself between the two major spheres of influence. The balance will tip further in China's favor as the USA recedes further from global development. What's interesting is if you look at the parallel international institutions that China are developing that will compete with the IMF et al, many of the partners are traditional and very close allies of the United States. For ex. with the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank, six of the top ten participants are all traditional very close allies of the United States - including Australia, France, the UK and South Korea[0] Long before Trump, Obama lobbied the leaders of these nations and advised against joining the AIIB, to no avail[1] All that post-war development and planning of building up the US sphere of influence slowly and steadily fading away. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Infrastructure_Investment_Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Infrastructure_Investmen... [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-asia-bank-idUSKBN0MD0B320150317 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-asia-bank-idUSKBN0M...

binarray2000 10y ago
While your analysis is true, it only describes the effects which have lead to today's situation. Here are a few causes: * In late 80's US empire has definitely thrown international law above the board by organizing color revolutions, destabilizing other countries and waging wars * US empire and its vassals (other NATO members) leave a trail of blood where ever they show up * Officially, US military - despite its huge budget, infrastructure and human power - still has not (15 years later!) defeated "the terrorists" * US empire has definitely destroyed its financial reputation in 1971 by unilaterally canceling the "gold standard" and, since then, the masks are off and US dollar is being printed/created in the computer at the speed of light, without anything but military might to back it * World Bank and IMF - two institutions majorly influenced by the US - wreak havoc in South America, Africa, South Asia and South Europe * Russia is getting back on feet after 2000 and US empire has no means to counter it * US empire and its media have done something remarkable in the 26 years since the fall of the Berlin wall: In 1990 USA was a country with a great image, in 2016 USA is arguably the most hated country in the world The world outside of the empire sees all this. And runs away from the bully who has ("long before Trump") made himself weaker by seeking refuge in those who show at least some respect.
- ethbro 10y ago
  > in 2016 USA is arguably the most hated country in the world Let's agree to disagree on this, based on the fact that there are a number of countries with active civil wars and/or genocides.
  - saiya-jin 10y ago
    i think you are missing the point of the parent - not many people care about genocide going on somewhere in the woods as long as it's not dangerously nearby (nothing to be proud of, but a natural part of being human these days). I don't know anybody who would literally 'hate' Rwanda, Burma, South Sudan or your former/current place of pick. now for rather unfortunate meddling into internal affairs of a given state - there isn't a single country in this world that can say US didn't try to f__k them over one way or the other. Not-a-single-one. You may not like this fact, but that's truth. Now we can say something similar, maybe to lesser exent, and maybe with more evil tone, about Russia, or in other ways about England/Dutch/French/Spanish/Belgian/German/and so on for the past, but for pure hate, US made it damn too easy to be hated. don't take this personally - I have much higher issues with Russia in this regard, the country that invaded my home in 1968, killed quite a few, brought more repressions and stayed for 21 years. But US ain't some saint 'good' guy, far from that.
    - ethbro 10y ago
      > not many people care about genocide going on somewhere in the woods as long as it's not dangerously nearby I'm going to take the somewhat cardboard American umbrage, but I think my position is a fair one. For all of our American geopolitical intrigue and intelligence service &#@$ups, the United States generally does care. In the sense that compared with other countries that could act, the United States chooses to do something. Somalia was a failed state, but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. Iraq was run by a dictator who killed his own people (caveat: yes, domestic and international audiences were lied to about WMD facts), but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. Continental Europe was occupied by the Nazis, but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. Swathes of the Pacific were occupied by Imperial Japan, but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. It's easy to say "That's an ocean away, doesn't concern us, and isn't our business." Even when people are being murdered or exploited. Nobody points a finger and says "Why didn't you act when it was happening?" But if we're being honest and fair, then there's zero utility in comparing how well Switzerland is liked vs the US or Russia. It's a hell of a lot easier to make friends if you never enter a competition.
hd4 10y ago
Traditional? Not really. The UK or France could be considered traditional allies. Pakistan was more of a conveniently-located 'strategic partner'. I say this as someone of Pakistani origin. The people of Pakistan are hugely skeptical and wary of this 'alliance' and have long felt they have been used, there is deep resentment, so it's not even slightly surprising they are looking to align themselves with those whose reputation is less sullied (in their view) than the US's.
- _nedR 10y ago
  True. But the relationship has spanned many decades into the cold war, with Pakistan leaning towards the US and India leaning towards Russia. There was little trust or love or shared values involved, but it was still one borne of necessity, that had endured a lot of bumps (to say the least) along the way.
  - saiya-jin 10y ago
    this was an idiotic decision by US - India has much more common with western democracies compared to Pakistan. It's also the biggest democracy in the world, since it's humble beginnings. I presume US couldn't swallow that somebody like to be rather independent though and bow into submission during cold war, ie 'if you're not with us you are against us' mentality
- kristianov 10y ago
  Indeed. Pakistan is important to US because of terrorism in Afghanistan, at the same time Pakistan is important to China because of threat of India.
  - hd4 10y ago
    And before Afghanistan, the Soviet Union. And as you say, the mutual interest in containing the threat posed by India. If anything, Trump courting India as much as he has been doing, at the same time talking tough against China means we have 'interesting times' ahead.
smallnamespace 10y ago
It's not a realignment. China and Pakistan have been close strategic allies since the 70s [1], while Pakistan's stance with the US has gone back and forth a couple of times. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_relatio...
eternalban 10y ago
> Another traditional US ally re-aligning itself China has been an ally of Pakistan for a long time. > parallel international institutions that [the Chinese] are developing that will compete with the IMF http://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2016/09/29/AM16-NA093016IMF-Adds-Chinese-Renminbi-to-Special-Drawing-Rights-Basket http://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2016/09/29/AM16-NA093016...
tiatia 10y ago
"Another traditional US ally re-aligning itself between the two major spheres of influence. The balance will tip further in China's favor as the USA recedes further from global development." China wants just an ally in the back of India. This is understandable from a Chinese perspective. But Pakistan is a moslems country and China has enough problems with its own moslems. If you have been in Xinjiang province: The level of security is astonishing. I wonder about the costs of maintaining this and long term stability.
rangibaby 10y ago
Mao hated Khrushchev which meant that Soviet-Chinese relations were extremely hostile (actual battles were fought between soldiers of the two nations). India was aligned with the USSR, which made China and Pakistan natural allies. They have been close since then.
brilliantcode 10y ago
except Pakistan is not really an ally but a lynchpin in starting another nuclear cold war style standoff in the Indo-Pakistani region which distracts them from US core interests in other more important areas. but I agree with the other comment below OP, IMF & WB have destroyed economies that threatened US interests, ex. Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Ireland, so on. There is a clear pattern of market manipulation and subsequent destruction and using that chaos to reign them closer to US interests. We should all but expect the same from China but with much less subtleness.

by nikcub 10y ago

binarray2000 10y ago

While your analysis is true, it only describes the effects which have lead to today's situation. Here are a few causes: * In late 80's US empire has definitely thrown international law above the board by organizing color revolutions, destabilizing other countries and waging wars * US empire and its vassals (other NATO members) leave a trail of blood where ever they show up * Officially, US military - despite its huge budget, infrastructure and human power - still has not (15 years later!) defeated "the terrorists" * US empire has definitely destroyed its financial reputation in 1971 by unilaterally canceling the "gold standard" and, since then, the masks are off and US dollar is being printed/created in the computer at the speed of light, without anything but military might to back it * World Bank and IMF - two institutions majorly influenced by the US - wreak havoc in South America, Africa, South Asia and South Europe * Russia is getting back on feet after 2000 and US empire has no means to counter it * US empire and its media have done something remarkable in the 26 years since the fall of the Berlin wall: In 1990 USA was a country with a great image, in 2016 USA is arguably the most hated country in the world The world outside of the empire sees all this. And runs away from the bully who has ("long before Trump") made himself weaker by seeking refuge in those who show at least some respect.

ethbro 10y ago
> in 2016 USA is arguably the most hated country in the world Let's agree to disagree on this, based on the fact that there are a number of countries with active civil wars and/or genocides.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  i think you are missing the point of the parent - not many people care about genocide going on somewhere in the woods as long as it's not dangerously nearby (nothing to be proud of, but a natural part of being human these days). I don't know anybody who would literally 'hate' Rwanda, Burma, South Sudan or your former/current place of pick. now for rather unfortunate meddling into internal affairs of a given state - there isn't a single country in this world that can say US didn't try to f__k them over one way or the other. Not-a-single-one. You may not like this fact, but that's truth. Now we can say something similar, maybe to lesser exent, and maybe with more evil tone, about Russia, or in other ways about England/Dutch/French/Spanish/Belgian/German/and so on for the past, but for pure hate, US made it damn too easy to be hated. don't take this personally - I have much higher issues with Russia in this regard, the country that invaded my home in 1968, killed quite a few, brought more repressions and stayed for 21 years. But US ain't some saint 'good' guy, far from that.
  - ethbro 10y ago
    > not many people care about genocide going on somewhere in the woods as long as it's not dangerously nearby I'm going to take the somewhat cardboard American umbrage, but I think my position is a fair one. For all of our American geopolitical intrigue and intelligence service &#@$ups, the United States generally does care. In the sense that compared with other countries that could act, the United States chooses to do something. Somalia was a failed state, but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. Iraq was run by a dictator who killed his own people (caveat: yes, domestic and international audiences were lied to about WMD facts), but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. Continental Europe was occupied by the Nazis, but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. Swathes of the Pacific were occupied by Imperial Japan, but we were there trying to do what we thought was best. It's easy to say "That's an ocean away, doesn't concern us, and isn't our business." Even when people are being murdered or exploited. Nobody points a finger and says "Why didn't you act when it was happening?" But if we're being honest and fair, then there's zero utility in comparing how well Switzerland is liked vs the US or Russia. It's a hell of a lot easier to make friends if you never enter a competition.

hd4 10y ago

Traditional? Not really. The UK or France could be considered traditional allies. Pakistan was more of a conveniently-located 'strategic partner'. I say this as someone of Pakistani origin. The people of Pakistan are hugely skeptical and wary of this 'alliance' and have long felt they have been used, there is deep resentment, so it's not even slightly surprising they are looking to align themselves with those whose reputation is less sullied (in their view) than the US's.

_nedR 10y ago
True. But the relationship has spanned many decades into the cold war, with Pakistan leaning towards the US and India leaning towards Russia. There was little trust or love or shared values involved, but it was still one borne of necessity, that had endured a lot of bumps (to say the least) along the way.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  this was an idiotic decision by US - India has much more common with western democracies compared to Pakistan. It's also the biggest democracy in the world, since it's humble beginnings. I presume US couldn't swallow that somebody like to be rather independent though and bow into submission during cold war, ie 'if you're not with us you are against us' mentality
kristianov 10y ago
Indeed. Pakistan is important to US because of terrorism in Afghanistan, at the same time Pakistan is important to China because of threat of India.
- hd4 10y ago
  And before Afghanistan, the Soviet Union. And as you say, the mutual interest in containing the threat posed by India. If anything, Trump courting India as much as he has been doing, at the same time talking tough against China means we have 'interesting times' ahead.

smallnamespace 10y ago

It's not a realignment. China and Pakistan have been close strategic allies since the 70s [1], while Pakistan's stance with the US has gone back and forth a couple of times. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Pakistan_relatio...

eternalban 10y ago

> Another traditional US ally re-aligning itself China has been an ally of Pakistan for a long time. > parallel international institutions that [the Chinese] are developing that will compete with the IMF http://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2016/09/29/AM16-NA093016IMF-Adds-Chinese-Renminbi-to-Special-Drawing-Rights-Basket http://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2016/09/29/AM16-NA093016...

tiatia 10y ago

"Another traditional US ally re-aligning itself between the two major spheres of influence. The balance will tip further in China's favor as the USA recedes further from global development." China wants just an ally in the back of India. This is understandable from a Chinese perspective. But Pakistan is a moslems country and China has enough problems with its own moslems. If you have been in Xinjiang province: The level of security is astonishing. I wonder about the costs of maintaining this and long term stability.

rangibaby 10y ago

Mao hated Khrushchev which meant that Soviet-Chinese relations were extremely hostile (actual battles were fought between soldiers of the two nations). India was aligned with the USSR, which made China and Pakistan natural allies. They have been close since then.

brilliantcode 10y ago

except Pakistan is not really an ally but a lynchpin in starting another nuclear cold war style standoff in the Indo-Pakistani region which distracts them from US core interests in other more important areas. but I agree with the other comment below OP, IMF & WB have destroyed economies that threatened US interests, ex. Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Ireland, so on. There is a clear pattern of market manipulation and subsequent destruction and using that chaos to reign them closer to US interests. We should all but expect the same from China but with much less subtleness.