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and yet so many people think capitalism = evil and socialism = good. it's quite bizarre.

Samis2001 10y ago
Eh, socialism and communism may seem to offer better end results but the difficulty of implementation without being exploited / converting to another ideology is evidently hard, perhaps impossible.
Synaesthesia 10y ago
Socialism is simply a philosophy that puts people before money, it has nothing to do with dictatorships or authoritarianism which this is.
- wooter 10y ago
  > Socialism is simply a philosophy that puts people before money That is a platitude that doesn't mean anything. Abolishing a pricing mechanism doesn't put people ahead - it destroys resources. Capitalism has done more for the people in the last 300 years than any other system in the last 30,000.
  - Synaesthesia 10y ago
    For which people? If you look at India, 200-300 years ago, it was a major manufacturing hub and much wealthier and better-off than it is today.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      India surely was comparatively wealthier, or less poor. When compared to other countries. But in absolute terms it was very, very poor compared to today.
    - BurningFrog 10y ago
      What was concretely better in the India of 1750 than today? Communications? Medicine? Nutrition? Science? Housing? Civil rights? Arts? Life span?
      - Synaesthesia 10y ago
        I didn't say it was better than today. Things have improved a lot since independence. It was better before colonization than after.
        BurningFrog 10y ago
        "it was a major manufacturing hub and much wealthier and better-off than it is today"
- jblow 10y ago
  The way socialism puts people before money is via government control of resource allocation. That is by necessity authoritarian (even in the USA).
  - Synaesthesia 10y ago
    Capitalism is also authoritarian, as companies are authoritarian entities.
    - almavi 10y ago
      And at least we all have SOME control over governments, not the case with companies.
      - vivekd 10y ago
        Were it true that you had control over your governments you would have control over the companies would you not, as it is the government that regulates and controls companies.
        Synaesthesia 10y ago
        Yes ultimately we the people hold all the power and should decide how we want things to be.
        jospoortvliet 10y ago
        ... Problem is that we can only do cider things based on the information we have and to the extend we understand the issues. Controlling media and limiting education are two powerful ways in which both governments and companies control people.
    - vivekd 10y ago
      I don't think this is true, corporations do bad things, and there are bad corporations, but no corporation has anywhere near the power of a state. Corporations can't force you to give them an arbitrary amount of your income the way the revenue service can. Corporations can't kill or imprison people. Corporations can't control and set rules on currency. Corporations can't regulate industrial practices or limit others from participating in the market. In fact, corporations are actually creations of government. Corporations would not exist were it not for laws defining certain times of companies with limited liability for owners.
ssalazar 10y ago
Its not bizarre when you consider that what is called "socialism" today encompasses a range of attitudes towards economic policy. Its not bizarre when you consider that the drive towards efficiency and concentration of wealth destroys the demand side of the equation. The Nordic countries are doing great (better than the US in many regards) and this is what most on the left refer to when they speak of socialism. I don't know how anyone can look at Venezuela or Eastern Europe in the 70s/80s and say "yeah, we should be like that."
laughingman123 10y ago
Worker ownership is defining quality of socialism. Marx saw capitalism as better than feudalism, but it is progression to next step aka Communism. But most "communist revolutions" have devolved to state owned capitalism instead of worker ownership.
ainiriand 10y ago
Capitalism is really good for so many many countries... They are living the capitalist dream! Let me give you some examples of those countries, in case you forgot: - Honduras - El Salvador - Guatemala (Almost all south america is completely dangerous) - Moldova - Romania - Georgia (Almost all ex soviet republics are lingering as third world) - Albania - Greece - Kazakstan, Uzbekistan (The middle east countries are some of the poorest) - ALL Africa Also I can give you a list of some countries dying with socialism and socialist society: - Norway - China (They are richer than the US) - Italy You see were am going... I think that you should try to be not so dramatic in your arguments. There are good and evil in both sides.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > (Almost all ex soviet republics are lingering as third world) You are exposing your ignorance. Ex soviet republics are by definition second world. > Also I can give you a list of some countries dying with socialism and socialist society: - Norway - China China is communist, not socialist. Norway is a redistributive democracy. There has not been a case where government or collective ownership of the means of production has led to good results. China tried, and has been rolling that back ever since. I suggest you learn your terms better before volunteering your opinion.
  - ainiriand 10y ago
    Have you ever visited Moldova? Amazing second world. Well, China is communist, you say. and they are the 3rd country by GDP. Bad results? What do you understand by socialism? Do you believe that you are not entitled private property?

Samis2001 10y ago

Eh, socialism and communism may seem to offer better end results but the difficulty of implementation without being exploited / converting to another ideology is evidently hard, perhaps impossible.

Synaesthesia 10y ago

Socialism is simply a philosophy that puts people before money, it has nothing to do with dictatorships or authoritarianism which this is.

wooter 10y ago
> Socialism is simply a philosophy that puts people before money That is a platitude that doesn't mean anything. Abolishing a pricing mechanism doesn't put people ahead - it destroys resources. Capitalism has done more for the people in the last 300 years than any other system in the last 30,000.
- Synaesthesia 10y ago
  For which people? If you look at India, 200-300 years ago, it was a major manufacturing hub and much wealthier and better-off than it is today.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    India surely was comparatively wealthier, or less poor. When compared to other countries. But in absolute terms it was very, very poor compared to today.
  - BurningFrog 10y ago
    What was concretely better in the India of 1750 than today? Communications? Medicine? Nutrition? Science? Housing? Civil rights? Arts? Life span?
    - Synaesthesia 10y ago
      I didn't say it was better than today. Things have improved a lot since independence. It was better before colonization than after.
      - BurningFrog 10y ago
        "it was a major manufacturing hub and much wealthier and better-off than it is today"
jblow 10y ago
The way socialism puts people before money is via government control of resource allocation. That is by necessity authoritarian (even in the USA).
- Synaesthesia 10y ago
  Capitalism is also authoritarian, as companies are authoritarian entities.
  - almavi 10y ago
    And at least we all have SOME control over governments, not the case with companies.
    - vivekd 10y ago
      Were it true that you had control over your governments you would have control over the companies would you not, as it is the government that regulates and controls companies.
      - Synaesthesia 10y ago
        Yes ultimately we the people hold all the power and should decide how we want things to be.
        jospoortvliet 10y ago
        ... Problem is that we can only do cider things based on the information we have and to the extend we understand the issues. Controlling media and limiting education are two powerful ways in which both governments and companies control people.
  - vivekd 10y ago
    I don't think this is true, corporations do bad things, and there are bad corporations, but no corporation has anywhere near the power of a state. Corporations can't force you to give them an arbitrary amount of your income the way the revenue service can. Corporations can't kill or imprison people. Corporations can't control and set rules on currency. Corporations can't regulate industrial practices or limit others from participating in the market. In fact, corporations are actually creations of government. Corporations would not exist were it not for laws defining certain times of companies with limited liability for owners.

ssalazar 10y ago

Its not bizarre when you consider that what is called "socialism" today encompasses a range of attitudes towards economic policy. Its not bizarre when you consider that the drive towards efficiency and concentration of wealth destroys the demand side of the equation. The Nordic countries are doing great (better than the US in many regards) and this is what most on the left refer to when they speak of socialism. I don't know how anyone can look at Venezuela or Eastern Europe in the 70s/80s and say "yeah, we should be like that."

laughingman123 10y ago

Worker ownership is defining quality of socialism. Marx saw capitalism as better than feudalism, but it is progression to next step aka Communism. But most "communist revolutions" have devolved to state owned capitalism instead of worker ownership.

ainiriand 10y ago

Capitalism is really good for so many many countries... They are living the capitalist dream! Let me give you some examples of those countries, in case you forgot: - Honduras - El Salvador - Guatemala (Almost all south america is completely dangerous) - Moldova - Romania - Georgia (Almost all ex soviet republics are lingering as third world) - Albania - Greece - Kazakstan, Uzbekistan (The middle east countries are some of the poorest) - ALL Africa Also I can give you a list of some countries dying with socialism and socialist society: - Norway - China (They are richer than the US) - Italy You see were am going... I think that you should try to be not so dramatic in your arguments. There are good and evil in both sides.

jimmywanger 10y ago
> (Almost all ex soviet republics are lingering as third world) You are exposing your ignorance. Ex soviet republics are by definition second world. > Also I can give you a list of some countries dying with socialism and socialist society: - Norway - China China is communist, not socialist. Norway is a redistributive democracy. There has not been a case where government or collective ownership of the means of production has led to good results. China tried, and has been rolling that back ever since. I suggest you learn your terms better before volunteering your opinion.
- ainiriand 10y ago
  Have you ever visited Moldova? Amazing second world. Well, China is communist, you say. and they are the 3rd country by GDP. Bad results? What do you understand by socialism? Do you believe that you are not entitled private property?