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Can't the same argument be used to show that consciousness is a whole bunch of things that it clearly is not. Just arguing that consciousness has certain attrib

by wbhart 10y ago

Can't the same argument be used to show that consciousness is a whole bunch of things that it clearly is not. Just arguing that consciousness has certain attributes and it shares those attributes with something else, doesn't make consciousness an example of that something else. I think there is a general trend towards thinking of consciousness as an emergent phenomenon which exists when a system is complex enough and has certain attributes, such as memory, information processing capability, etc. But none of these definitions enlighten me as to when or why such a system might become self-aware.

hacker_9 10y ago
Well we know the brain is incredibly advanced, as evolution has had a lot of time to work on it. It could be that to make something conscious just requires a very complex physical procedure or set of interconnected components. Once humans became conscious, it then worked out to be evolutionary beneficial to remain conscious in future generations. To me, to be 'conscious' is to be able to make decisions. Presented with all our sensory data, memories, knowledge etc the brain creates possible models of the future every millisecond, and passes them to the conscious component which is where we choose how to proceed. After a time, it doesn't even have to ask us anymore as it just replays past decisions. For example walking, driving a car, reading words etc
- wbhart 10y ago
  It seems to me that a meteorological expert system is conscious by that definition. I find that dubious.
  - hacker_9 10y ago
    An expert system doesn't actually make decisions; the programmers made the decisions and then hard coded them in. Something along the lines of 'if (wind_pressure > 0 && rain_density < 0.5) do_something() else etc'. It's probably a bit more dynamic than that, but however you do it, it is always the programmers that make the decisions and then write them in, to be replayed by the software later with different variables.
ajcm 10y ago
I think we too often get caught up with language and ascribing meaning to ideas that sound like they should have meaning. Perhaps there is no "why" of consciousness. There doesn't need to be a reason for it. If we take evolution as a given, properties of organisms arise either because having that property makes you more likely to survive in some environment, or as a side effect of other properties. We like to think that consciousness is special, because it "feels" special. But it's likely just some consequence of complexity. As for when it occurs, i think there's a bit too much black and white thinking going on there. For one, most people probably wrongly assume that humans are fully self aware. If you spend a minute thinking about it, you'll realise how little we're actually aware of in ourselves. Therefore we're on some spectrum of self awareness. "Less conscious" beings would feel a little less self aware, and "more conscious" beings would be more self aware. It's unlikely there's a defined point where you "become" self aware. To illustrate the point. When would you say you are "drunk"? What's the right definition of drunk? Is it when you start to feel any effect at all? Is it when you have the first sip? Or is it when you can no longer walk? Most people usually think of such words as "tipsy", which would come some time before drunk. Or maybe even "blackout" which is associated with drunk but is usually somehow more so. What this makes clear is that there's less a problem with working out "what is consciousness and when does it happen", and more a problem of how we have evolved to discuss concepts. This is why we're only just coming to terms with the non-binary nature of many concepts. It's not innate in us to recognise gradations. It's innate to draw lines between things and categorise them. But that doesn't mean that such classification applies so well to the universe.

by wbhart 10y ago

hacker_9 10y ago

Well we know the brain is incredibly advanced, as evolution has had a lot of time to work on it. It could be that to make something conscious just requires a very complex physical procedure or set of interconnected components. Once humans became conscious, it then worked out to be evolutionary beneficial to remain conscious in future generations. To me, to be 'conscious' is to be able to make decisions. Presented with all our sensory data, memories, knowledge etc the brain creates possible models of the future every millisecond, and passes them to the conscious component which is where we choose how to proceed. After a time, it doesn't even have to ask us anymore as it just replays past decisions. For example walking, driving a car, reading words etc

wbhart 10y ago
It seems to me that a meteorological expert system is conscious by that definition. I find that dubious.
- hacker_9 10y ago
  An expert system doesn't actually make decisions; the programmers made the decisions and then hard coded them in. Something along the lines of 'if (wind_pressure > 0 && rain_density < 0.5) do_something() else etc'. It's probably a bit more dynamic than that, but however you do it, it is always the programmers that make the decisions and then write them in, to be replayed by the software later with different variables.

ajcm 10y ago

I think we too often get caught up with language and ascribing meaning to ideas that sound like they should have meaning. Perhaps there is no "why" of consciousness. There doesn't need to be a reason for it. If we take evolution as a given, properties of organisms arise either because having that property makes you more likely to survive in some environment, or as a side effect of other properties. We like to think that consciousness is special, because it "feels" special. But it's likely just some consequence of complexity. As for when it occurs, i think there's a bit too much black and white thinking going on there. For one, most people probably wrongly assume that humans are fully self aware. If you spend a minute thinking about it, you'll realise how little we're actually aware of in ourselves. Therefore we're on some spectrum of self awareness. "Less conscious" beings would feel a little less self aware, and "more conscious" beings would be more self aware. It's unlikely there's a defined point where you "become" self aware. To illustrate the point. When would you say you are "drunk"? What's the right definition of drunk? Is it when you start to feel any effect at all? Is it when you have the first sip? Or is it when you can no longer walk? Most people usually think of such words as "tipsy", which would come some time before drunk. Or maybe even "blackout" which is associated with drunk but is usually somehow more so. What this makes clear is that there's less a problem with working out "what is consciousness and when does it happen", and more a problem of how we have evolved to discuss concepts. This is why we're only just coming to terms with the non-binary nature of many concepts. It's not innate in us to recognise gradations. It's innate to draw lines between things and categorise them. But that doesn't mean that such classification applies so well to the universe.