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I always thought about putting some sort of backdoor like where a get request triggers deletion of all files or something -- in case of non-payment.. Then I'd c

I always thought about putting some sort of backdoor like where a get request triggers deletion of all files or something -- in case of non-payment.. Then I'd charge like a $500 fee to clone everything back from my github repo to their server lol... Haven't ever done anything like that--but thought about doing it.

dorianm 10y ago
"Client not paid? Add opacity to the body tag and increase it every day until their site completely fades away" https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D- https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-
- freelancezombie 10y ago
  Hahaha, awesome.
Bluestrike2 10y ago
Emotionally gratifying, but poison pills or deleting a site/repo is just a fast way to a lawsuit or a complaint with the local district attorney if they're feeling vindictive. It wouldn't take much to argue that such actions fall under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or various state equivalents, for instance. You're always better off having your attorney send a letter threatening legal action for nonpayment and breach of contract rather than trying to force them through those sorts of methods. The client might be willing to screw over a solo freelancer because there's limited risk to them; worst case, they pay up after all and you go away. But if their other suppliers hear about such actions, there's always the possibility that those suppliers might change their payment terms in response to the perceived risk of bad behavior on the part of the client. Those changes could cause a lot of problems with cashflow operations, and most companies will go out of their way to avoid that sort of reputation loss.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  I agree with your overall point, however... "You're always better off having your attorney send a letter..." If you think most freelancers have an attorney to send letters on their behalf, you have only seen a very small, very privileged minority of freelancers. Many don't even have health insurance, let alone an attorney to help with non-paying clients.
  - MrFoof 10y ago
    Please watch this: Fuck You, Pay Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U The $1250 I spent once to have a business attorney draft up a template for my services agreement is the best $1250 I ever spent in the past 7 years. That $1250 makes me money, because I never have to harass clients to get paid, because they know I have legal recourse if they don't. Since then I've maybe paid him $1000 to deal with things clients wanted to redline in my service agreement. That $2250 total (which is a legitimate business expense) is a pittance compared to what I would lose for a single unpaid invoice. Meanwhile, I always hear from freelancers that don't get paid, but claim lawyers are "too expensive". You know what's really expensive? Getting $0 for the last N days you worked instead of $X. $X is a hell of a lot more money, and unless you have a contract in place, you expose yourself to that possibility every time you engage with a client.
    - codedokode 10y ago
      Would not it be cheaper to find a sample agreement on the Internet? While it might have some faults it is still a legal document that might be used to scare the client.
      - zrail 10y ago
        A template is a good way to cut down on how much time your attorney spends drafting your services agreement but it in no way substitutes for legal review. "Scaring the client" is not the game. Securing a higher class of client is the game. Having a defensible contract that you know forward and back, along with an attorney to consult if the client breaches it, is the goal.
- dismantlethesun 10y ago
  Not really. Every piece of shrinkwrap software comes with a timer that kills itself when it isn't registered in time. In some cases, it'll even uninstall itself or its core 'premium' components. In others, it'll simply stop displaying information and ask for payment. Obviously, you couldn't do such a thing if you're a web designer... but if you're a developer, writing a plugin for their CMS or the such, then including a security file in your codebase is a-okay. And if they call it "work for hire" and attempt to sue you, remind everyone that if you aren't paid then you aren't hired... as per your contract.
  - Bluestrike2 10y ago
    It's different when the customer knows about the timer and agrees to it somewhere in the EULA. It's when you hide that security file, or go back in and do something, that you're stepping into a whole new pile of shit. A lot of PHP software (forum software like vBulletin, CMS's, etc.) have phone-home or license verification mechanisms. That's usually fine, unless you whip up something nasty that does something beyond just disabling the software in question.
- logn 10y ago
  Maybe you could just add a clause to the contract stating that late payment may result in the software being remotely deactivated.
MrFoof 10y ago
You could do that. Or if you do work as a freelance contractor, you can pay a business lawyer 4 to 6 hours of their time to draft up a services agreement that you will use as a template for every client going forward. Client doesn't pay me (after some nudges that they should)? Well according to the services agreement there was no IP transfer, because I wasn't paid. They continue to use the IP? Well the contract they signed says I can sue the hell out of them (and win) as recourse. Client wants something changed after delivery and payment? I'm not obligated to do squat, as the service agreement says that since they signed off on the delivery receipt, they supposedly were fine with it. The services agreement makes sure I get paid, the client doesn't try to put me over a barrel, and makes sure I'm making good by my client. That's what you have them. Seriously. Always have a contract.
- codedokode 10y ago
  Signing a contract usually means additional delay (one cannot sign a contract electronically, or am I wrong here?) and a client might choose another freelancer.
  - Mz 10y ago
    People can sign contracts electronically.
  - shostack 10y ago
    While there can be legitimate reasons to not move forward based on some contract terms, either way if there is a deal breaker that probably isn't a great fit anyway.
  - freddyc 10y ago
    > one cannot sign a contract electronically This obviously varies by jurisdiction, but if you're US based you can absolutely sign electronically (there's an entire Act that enables it). The easiest way is to use services like Echosign or Docusign which most people are pretty familiar with these days.
    - 10y ago
vacri 10y ago
For certain kinds of clients (some small businesses), one trick I saw on HN was to simply create their website on an account you own, and the keys were handed over when payment was made.

dorianm 10y ago

"Client not paid? Add opacity to the body tag and increase it every day until their site completely fades away" https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D- https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-

freelancezombie 10y ago
Hahaha, awesome.

Bluestrike2 10y ago

Emotionally gratifying, but poison pills or deleting a site/repo is just a fast way to a lawsuit or a complaint with the local district attorney if they're feeling vindictive. It wouldn't take much to argue that such actions fall under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or various state equivalents, for instance. You're always better off having your attorney send a letter threatening legal action for nonpayment and breach of contract rather than trying to force them through those sorts of methods. The client might be willing to screw over a solo freelancer because there's limited risk to them; worst case, they pay up after all and you go away. But if their other suppliers hear about such actions, there's always the possibility that those suppliers might change their payment terms in response to the perceived risk of bad behavior on the part of the client. Those changes could cause a lot of problems with cashflow operations, and most companies will go out of their way to avoid that sort of reputation loss.

xiaoma 10y ago
I agree with your overall point, however... "You're always better off having your attorney send a letter..." If you think most freelancers have an attorney to send letters on their behalf, you have only seen a very small, very privileged minority of freelancers. Many don't even have health insurance, let alone an attorney to help with non-paying clients.
- MrFoof 10y ago
  Please watch this: Fuck You, Pay Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U The $1250 I spent once to have a business attorney draft up a template for my services agreement is the best $1250 I ever spent in the past 7 years. That $1250 makes me money, because I never have to harass clients to get paid, because they know I have legal recourse if they don't. Since then I've maybe paid him $1000 to deal with things clients wanted to redline in my service agreement. That $2250 total (which is a legitimate business expense) is a pittance compared to what I would lose for a single unpaid invoice. Meanwhile, I always hear from freelancers that don't get paid, but claim lawyers are "too expensive". You know what's really expensive? Getting $0 for the last N days you worked instead of $X. $X is a hell of a lot more money, and unless you have a contract in place, you expose yourself to that possibility every time you engage with a client.
  - codedokode 10y ago
    Would not it be cheaper to find a sample agreement on the Internet? While it might have some faults it is still a legal document that might be used to scare the client.
    - zrail 10y ago
      A template is a good way to cut down on how much time your attorney spends drafting your services agreement but it in no way substitutes for legal review. "Scaring the client" is not the game. Securing a higher class of client is the game. Having a defensible contract that you know forward and back, along with an attorney to consult if the client breaches it, is the goal.
dismantlethesun 10y ago
Not really. Every piece of shrinkwrap software comes with a timer that kills itself when it isn't registered in time. In some cases, it'll even uninstall itself or its core 'premium' components. In others, it'll simply stop displaying information and ask for payment. Obviously, you couldn't do such a thing if you're a web designer... but if you're a developer, writing a plugin for their CMS or the such, then including a security file in your codebase is a-okay. And if they call it "work for hire" and attempt to sue you, remind everyone that if you aren't paid then you aren't hired... as per your contract.
- Bluestrike2 10y ago
  It's different when the customer knows about the timer and agrees to it somewhere in the EULA. It's when you hide that security file, or go back in and do something, that you're stepping into a whole new pile of shit. A lot of PHP software (forum software like vBulletin, CMS's, etc.) have phone-home or license verification mechanisms. That's usually fine, unless you whip up something nasty that does something beyond just disabling the software in question.
logn 10y ago
Maybe you could just add a clause to the contract stating that late payment may result in the software being remotely deactivated.

MrFoof 10y ago

You could do that. Or if you do work as a freelance contractor, you can pay a business lawyer 4 to 6 hours of their time to draft up a services agreement that you will use as a template for every client going forward. Client doesn't pay me (after some nudges that they should)? Well according to the services agreement there was no IP transfer, because I wasn't paid. They continue to use the IP? Well the contract they signed says I can sue the hell out of them (and win) as recourse. Client wants something changed after delivery and payment? I'm not obligated to do squat, as the service agreement says that since they signed off on the delivery receipt, they supposedly were fine with it. The services agreement makes sure I get paid, the client doesn't try to put me over a barrel, and makes sure I'm making good by my client. That's what you have them. Seriously. Always have a contract.

codedokode 10y ago
Signing a contract usually means additional delay (one cannot sign a contract electronically, or am I wrong here?) and a client might choose another freelancer.
- Mz 10y ago
  People can sign contracts electronically.
- shostack 10y ago
  While there can be legitimate reasons to not move forward based on some contract terms, either way if there is a deal breaker that probably isn't a great fit anyway.
- freddyc 10y ago
  > one cannot sign a contract electronically This obviously varies by jurisdiction, but if you're US based you can absolutely sign electronically (there's an entire Act that enables it). The easiest way is to use services like Echosign or Docusign which most people are pretty familiar with these days.
  - 10y ago

vacri 10y ago

For certain kinds of clients (some small businesses), one trick I saw on HN was to simply create their website on an account you own, and the keys were handed over when payment was made.