12 ms·

My first freelance job was for a prestigious organization. They refused to pay, because (in their words) "no one will listen to you if you file anything anyways

My first freelance job was for a prestigious organization. They refused to pay, because (in their words) "no one will listen to you if you file anything anyways" and they had denied that I did the work. I told them that they had 24 hours to pay me and acknowledge my work, or I'd put porn on their landing page. 24.5 hours later I got paid.

martin-adams 10y ago
Did you also charge them to clean up the homepage?
- relics443 10y ago
  I didn't, but it was only after some serious internal debate.
JoshTriplett 10y ago
Funny, but at the same time, that could also get you sued (or potentially even prosecuted), and nobody would have much sympathy for you.
- relics443 10y ago
  I was worried about that, but I just couldn't resist. Besides, they were the type of organization that wouldn't have wanted that to get out.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  I'd have loads of sympathy for the OP. As would thousands of others.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    How many people in a jury do you think would share your feelings?
    - EduardoBautista 10y ago
      Seeing how people rarely view businesses as the "good guy", it is likely that many people would.
      - fucking_tragedy 10y ago
        I don't know. Corporations have been able to paint individuals as leeches trying to take advantage of businesses pretty successfully with their frivolous lawsuits are ruining America narrative. For example, the McDonald's coffee case involved an elderly woman with 3rd degree burns inflicted on her genitalia. I can't think of a more sympathetic victim, yet her case is the poster child for supposed frivolous lawsuits hurting businesses.
        leephillips 10y ago
        Even if the coffee were at the boiling temperature, how could it have caused 3rd degree burns?
        DanBC 10y ago
        "3rd degree" just means full thickness burns. She was an older woman, thus had thinner skin; the spill was onto clothing; the spill was into a seat where she had limited mobility. But ignoring all of that: hot water is dangerous and can cause full thickness burns in seconds. http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_wa... At 60 C you'd have full thickness burns in 5 seconds.
        leephillips 10y ago
        Thanks for the explanation. I had some misconceptions about this stuff, clearly.
        bertiewhykovich 10y ago
        Ask the facts, man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaura...
- gremlinsinc 10y ago
  yeah porn is bad... instead have a php file that simply has unlink('public_html'); when called. That'd show them... The only way to sometimes ensure payment is make sure that the product isn't delivered until paid.. -- or just use a staging server and be like this could be yours if the money hits my bank account.
- outworlder 10y ago
  Even more troubling if you think that, since "he didn't perform the work", then he could only have gotten to the server by nefarious means. Hence, hacking charges...
  - relics443 10y ago
    I was thinking they'd have to prove that, and it makes it look that more likely that I actually did work for them (because I had access).
    - Bluestrike2 10y ago
      Access isn't necessarily the same as authorization. After all, any hacker who successfully penetrates a system technically has access to it at that point. Their argument would be that you exceeded your authorization by deleting files or a website, defacing it with porn or a "Widgets Inc. Doesn't Pay Its Bills" notice, scrubbing a Git repo, or whatever other poison pill you implemented to force payment. And they'd likely win with that argument under the CFAA. Even if they just handed you login credentials, they did so in the context of you fulfilling a specific task. From a technical perspective, those credentials might give you root access that lets you do anything. From a legal perspective, that's not the same as giving you authorization to do anything. For the CFAA, this would likely constitute "exceed[ing] authorized access." Not to mention that taking down a site (or just defacing it) is, on its face, clearly against a client's interests. In any case, you're using the threat of damage to force payment. Even if the client owes you a valid debt, those threats can likely be considered extortion. The sort of jerks who will gleefully screw over a freelancer because, as they so kindly informed you, "no one will listen to you" are often the sort who have no problems with screwing you another way.
hkmurakami 10y ago
It seems like no amount of prestige or status or good standing makes an organization (or perhaps, just the individuals) immune from such behavior. A friend of mine, a freelance journalist, was never paid by the New York Times. Pretty much the last organization I would have expected to engage in such behavior.
- donohoe 10y ago
  As someone who knows a number of ppl that work/worked freelance at the Times, I find this hard to believe. Any extra details?
  - hueving 10y ago
    It's common for papers to refuse work if it doesn't meet specifications for having enough facts to back up statements, having clear political biases, etc.
    - to3m 10y ago
      Hello. I'm part of the secretive cabal of leftists that push the mainstream liberal agenda. I downvoted you because it is our mission to silence conservative-friendly voices wherever we see them. We pay particular attention in forums such as this one, where bringing politics into random discussions is encouraged and welcomed.
      - megablast 10y ago
        I've got a good idea, lets put a left/right spin on every post, for no reason at all, and only when it has nothing to do with the discussion. And when we are inevitably voted down, lets pretend it is a big conspiracy.
        yabatopia 10y ago
        To make it even more obvious, we can left align the left/liberal posts, and right align the right/conservative news. Add a fun twist. In the middle, on the bottom of the screen there's you, Space Invaders style. You have to shoot your way through left- and right-aligned posts, until you get killed by the left or the right.
gremlinsinc 10y ago
I always thought about putting some sort of backdoor like where a get request triggers deletion of all files or something -- in case of non-payment.. Then I'd charge like a $500 fee to clone everything back from my github repo to their server lol... Haven't ever done anything like that--but thought about doing it.
- dorianm 10y ago
  "Client not paid? Add opacity to the body tag and increase it every day until their site completely fades away" https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D- https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-
  - freelancezombie 10y ago
    Hahaha, awesome.
- Bluestrike2 10y ago
  Emotionally gratifying, but poison pills or deleting a site/repo is just a fast way to a lawsuit or a complaint with the local district attorney if they're feeling vindictive. It wouldn't take much to argue that such actions fall under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or various state equivalents, for instance. You're always better off having your attorney send a letter threatening legal action for nonpayment and breach of contract rather than trying to force them through those sorts of methods. The client might be willing to screw over a solo freelancer because there's limited risk to them; worst case, they pay up after all and you go away. But if their other suppliers hear about such actions, there's always the possibility that those suppliers might change their payment terms in response to the perceived risk of bad behavior on the part of the client. Those changes could cause a lot of problems with cashflow operations, and most companies will go out of their way to avoid that sort of reputation loss.
  - xiaoma 10y ago
    I agree with your overall point, however... "You're always better off having your attorney send a letter..." If you think most freelancers have an attorney to send letters on their behalf, you have only seen a very small, very privileged minority of freelancers. Many don't even have health insurance, let alone an attorney to help with non-paying clients.
77pt77 10y ago
So, I take it you delivered on the porn?
- relics443 10y ago
  Most certainly :-)
abandonliberty 10y ago
I know of an organization that refuses to pay any of their contractors. It is currently facing several lawsuits. You'd think word would get around, but they've been doing it for years. They grind every single contractor for every cent and come out far ahead. Very combative way to live.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Until those lawsuits go through, anyway...
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    They'll likely be settled and come with a non disparagement clause.
- vadym909 10y ago
  <You'd think word would get around, but they've been doing it for years.> If you aren't naming the organization yourself, why would you be surprised word hasn't gotten around.
  - abandonliberty 10y ago
    You're right. Thanks for making me consider that. Unfortunately, as I am not supposed to know, there could be both legal and social impacts to people I care about if I divulged such information. There are other people in much better positions to do something about it. Your question forced me to understand this. Does some sort of repository for bad clients & companies exist? Could it? This isn't exactly what Yelp and BBB is for.
    - jameskegel 10y ago
      I am skeptical of your claims, and your deflection technique doesn't add credibility.
    - tinix 10y ago
ihaveajob 10y ago
My first programming gig was reverse engineering a file format for my dad's school (he was a chemistry teacher doubling up as school admin). The person previously in charge of that position had installed a time bomb that he kept pushing back as long as he still had the job. Total office politics. Luckily the file format was in plain text and all I had to do was interpret some odd fields asking around. I was never paid (it was a favor), but it felt so good to know that this other person knew it was me who did it.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  Did they take the guy to court? Or did they give up once they disarmed him?
- wavefunction 10y ago
  a time bomb in plain text? hmm
  - ihaveajob 10y ago
    The file format that the app used was in plain text. I never saw the software in action, and I have no idea how the time bomb was implemented, but there was a way to enter a code and reactivate it.
credit_guy 10y ago
Cool story. I do hope you didn't go all nuclear on them in that 0.5 hours, and you left only a kitten photo there.
crdb 10y ago
After I had a similar issue, I decided to offer all clients a 10% discount for paying upfront, monthly. It has the added advantage of no notice period: if they are fed up with our work they can just stop paying and we stop doing any more work. The amount of stress that has gone from my life was totally worth the 10% discount.
- syngrog66 10y ago
  I've also found a good technique is to ask for the largest amount you can, upfront. Because if they agree to it, and do it, it signals several things to me, at once: 1. they have money; 2. they have enough money that this amount won't break them; 3. they have the ability, approval & mechanism for sending me money. 4. they also believe in me and truly value me and want me and (most likely) have no plan to get free work out of me without paying on the backend. In general, the would-be clients who balk at that are either shady, or, have such small/unstable budgets that it's not the best use of my time to help them. Of course, is chance they just don't trust me. The problem is that I trust me, and I have only so many work hours in my life, and only one life to live, and I can't know for sure whether I'll ever get paid, or, how much, until and unless they truly do it. Proof is in the pudding. If I had a nickel for every would-be client who wanted the world for $800 -- or balked at that because "all they have is X" where X is ludricrously small, well, I'd have a lot of nickels. Heck that's literally all you'll get from them. Assuming they don't stiff you totally. The clients that do pay, and well, and upfront -- those are gold. Such gold I'd argue it's best to keep them secret. Very close to the vest. (If one is smart anyway.)
- kobeya 10y ago
  Raise your asking rate by 10%
  - helloworld 10y ago
    Or maybe 11.111%, so you're back to where you started.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
welly 10y ago
A client I did some work a while ago for didn't so much refuse to pay but just didn't pay. Excuses, ignoring emails/calls etc. After about 7 months of this going on, I told them that they had 5 days to pay otherwise the only copy of the site I'd built for them was going to be deleted and I'd just accept the loss. The website wasn't actually live at this point but obviously they wanted it live because they paid up fairly promptly.
secfirstmd 10y ago
Name them!
logicallee 10y ago
Just to clarify, were they half an hour over the 24 hours incidentally - or did you follow the protocol you outlined and they reacted in the next half hour?
bujak 10y ago
Ahaha i lost it at 24.5 imagining how they scrambled to the bank when they actually did saw porn on their landing page

martin-adams 10y ago

Did you also charge them to clean up the homepage?

relics443 10y ago
I didn't, but it was only after some serious internal debate.

JoshTriplett 10y ago

Funny, but at the same time, that could also get you sued (or potentially even prosecuted), and nobody would have much sympathy for you.

relics443 10y ago
I was worried about that, but I just couldn't resist. Besides, they were the type of organization that wouldn't have wanted that to get out.
mgkimsal 10y ago
I'd have loads of sympathy for the OP. As would thousands of others.
- 77pt77 10y ago
  How many people in a jury do you think would share your feelings?
  - EduardoBautista 10y ago
    Seeing how people rarely view businesses as the "good guy", it is likely that many people would.
    - fucking_tragedy 10y ago
      I don't know. Corporations have been able to paint individuals as leeches trying to take advantage of businesses pretty successfully with their frivolous lawsuits are ruining America narrative. For example, the McDonald's coffee case involved an elderly woman with 3rd degree burns inflicted on her genitalia. I can't think of a more sympathetic victim, yet her case is the poster child for supposed frivolous lawsuits hurting businesses.
      - leephillips 10y ago
        Even if the coffee were at the boiling temperature, how could it have caused 3rd degree burns?
        DanBC 10y ago
        "3rd degree" just means full thickness burns. She was an older woman, thus had thinner skin; the spill was onto clothing; the spill was into a seat where she had limited mobility. But ignoring all of that: hot water is dangerous and can cause full thickness burns in seconds. http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_wa... At 60 C you'd have full thickness burns in 5 seconds.
        leephillips 10y ago
        Thanks for the explanation. I had some misconceptions about this stuff, clearly.
        bertiewhykovich 10y ago
        Ask the facts, man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaura...
gremlinsinc 10y ago
yeah porn is bad... instead have a php file that simply has unlink('public_html'); when called. That'd show them... The only way to sometimes ensure payment is make sure that the product isn't delivered until paid.. -- or just use a staging server and be like this could be yours if the money hits my bank account.
outworlder 10y ago
Even more troubling if you think that, since "he didn't perform the work", then he could only have gotten to the server by nefarious means. Hence, hacking charges...
- relics443 10y ago
  I was thinking they'd have to prove that, and it makes it look that more likely that I actually did work for them (because I had access).
  - Bluestrike2 10y ago
    Access isn't necessarily the same as authorization. After all, any hacker who successfully penetrates a system technically has access to it at that point. Their argument would be that you exceeded your authorization by deleting files or a website, defacing it with porn or a "Widgets Inc. Doesn't Pay Its Bills" notice, scrubbing a Git repo, or whatever other poison pill you implemented to force payment. And they'd likely win with that argument under the CFAA. Even if they just handed you login credentials, they did so in the context of you fulfilling a specific task. From a technical perspective, those credentials might give you root access that lets you do anything. From a legal perspective, that's not the same as giving you authorization to do anything. For the CFAA, this would likely constitute "exceed[ing] authorized access." Not to mention that taking down a site (or just defacing it) is, on its face, clearly against a client's interests. In any case, you're using the threat of damage to force payment. Even if the client owes you a valid debt, those threats can likely be considered extortion. The sort of jerks who will gleefully screw over a freelancer because, as they so kindly informed you, "no one will listen to you" are often the sort who have no problems with screwing you another way.

hkmurakami 10y ago

It seems like no amount of prestige or status or good standing makes an organization (or perhaps, just the individuals) immune from such behavior. A friend of mine, a freelance journalist, was never paid by the New York Times. Pretty much the last organization I would have expected to engage in such behavior.

donohoe 10y ago
As someone who knows a number of ppl that work/worked freelance at the Times, I find this hard to believe. Any extra details?
- hueving 10y ago
  It's common for papers to refuse work if it doesn't meet specifications for having enough facts to back up statements, having clear political biases, etc.
  - to3m 10y ago
    Hello. I'm part of the secretive cabal of leftists that push the mainstream liberal agenda. I downvoted you because it is our mission to silence conservative-friendly voices wherever we see them. We pay particular attention in forums such as this one, where bringing politics into random discussions is encouraged and welcomed.
    - megablast 10y ago
      I've got a good idea, lets put a left/right spin on every post, for no reason at all, and only when it has nothing to do with the discussion. And when we are inevitably voted down, lets pretend it is a big conspiracy.
      - yabatopia 10y ago
        To make it even more obvious, we can left align the left/liberal posts, and right align the right/conservative news. Add a fun twist. In the middle, on the bottom of the screen there's you, Space Invaders style. You have to shoot your way through left- and right-aligned posts, until you get killed by the left or the right.

gremlinsinc 10y ago

I always thought about putting some sort of backdoor like where a get request triggers deletion of all files or something -- in case of non-payment.. Then I'd charge like a $500 fee to clone everything back from my github repo to their server lol... Haven't ever done anything like that--but thought about doing it.

dorianm 10y ago
"Client not paid? Add opacity to the body tag and increase it every day until their site completely fades away" https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D- https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-
- freelancezombie 10y ago
  Hahaha, awesome.
Bluestrike2 10y ago
Emotionally gratifying, but poison pills or deleting a site/repo is just a fast way to a lawsuit or a complaint with the local district attorney if they're feeling vindictive. It wouldn't take much to argue that such actions fall under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or various state equivalents, for instance. You're always better off having your attorney send a letter threatening legal action for nonpayment and breach of contract rather than trying to force them through those sorts of methods. The client might be willing to screw over a solo freelancer because there's limited risk to them; worst case, they pay up after all and you go away. But if their other suppliers hear about such actions, there's always the possibility that those suppliers might change their payment terms in response to the perceived risk of bad behavior on the part of the client. Those changes could cause a lot of problems with cashflow operations, and most companies will go out of their way to avoid that sort of reputation loss.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  I agree with your overall point, however... "You're always better off having your attorney send a letter..." If you think most freelancers have an attorney to send letters on their behalf, you have only seen a very small, very privileged minority of freelancers. Many don't even have health insurance, let alone an attorney to help with non-paying clients.

77pt77 10y ago

So, I take it you delivered on the porn?

relics443 10y ago
Most certainly :-)

abandonliberty 10y ago

I know of an organization that refuses to pay any of their contractors. It is currently facing several lawsuits. You'd think word would get around, but they've been doing it for years. They grind every single contractor for every cent and come out far ahead. Very combative way to live.

cookiecaper 10y ago
Until those lawsuits go through, anyway...
- infinite8s 10y ago
  They'll likely be settled and come with a non disparagement clause.
vadym909 10y ago
<You'd think word would get around, but they've been doing it for years.> If you aren't naming the organization yourself, why would you be surprised word hasn't gotten around.
- abandonliberty 10y ago
  You're right. Thanks for making me consider that. Unfortunately, as I am not supposed to know, there could be both legal and social impacts to people I care about if I divulged such information. There are other people in much better positions to do something about it. Your question forced me to understand this. Does some sort of repository for bad clients & companies exist? Could it? This isn't exactly what Yelp and BBB is for.
  - jameskegel 10y ago
    I am skeptical of your claims, and your deflection technique doesn't add credibility.
  - tinix 10y ago

ihaveajob 10y ago

My first programming gig was reverse engineering a file format for my dad's school (he was a chemistry teacher doubling up as school admin). The person previously in charge of that position had installed a time bomb that he kept pushing back as long as he still had the job. Total office politics. Luckily the file format was in plain text and all I had to do was interpret some odd fields asking around. I was never paid (it was a favor), but it felt so good to know that this other person knew it was me who did it.

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
Did they take the guy to court? Or did they give up once they disarmed him?
wavefunction 10y ago
a time bomb in plain text? hmm
- ihaveajob 10y ago
  The file format that the app used was in plain text. I never saw the software in action, and I have no idea how the time bomb was implemented, but there was a way to enter a code and reactivate it.

credit_guy 10y ago

Cool story. I do hope you didn't go all nuclear on them in that 0.5 hours, and you left only a kitten photo there.

crdb 10y ago

After I had a similar issue, I decided to offer all clients a 10% discount for paying upfront, monthly. It has the added advantage of no notice period: if they are fed up with our work they can just stop paying and we stop doing any more work. The amount of stress that has gone from my life was totally worth the 10% discount.

syngrog66 10y ago
I've also found a good technique is to ask for the largest amount you can, upfront. Because if they agree to it, and do it, it signals several things to me, at once: 1. they have money; 2. they have enough money that this amount won't break them; 3. they have the ability, approval & mechanism for sending me money. 4. they also believe in me and truly value me and want me and (most likely) have no plan to get free work out of me without paying on the backend. In general, the would-be clients who balk at that are either shady, or, have such small/unstable budgets that it's not the best use of my time to help them. Of course, is chance they just don't trust me. The problem is that I trust me, and I have only so many work hours in my life, and only one life to live, and I can't know for sure whether I'll ever get paid, or, how much, until and unless they truly do it. Proof is in the pudding. If I had a nickel for every would-be client who wanted the world for $800 -- or balked at that because "all they have is X" where X is ludricrously small, well, I'd have a lot of nickels. Heck that's literally all you'll get from them. Assuming they don't stiff you totally. The clients that do pay, and well, and upfront -- those are gold. Such gold I'd argue it's best to keep them secret. Very close to the vest. (If one is smart anyway.)
kobeya 10y ago
Raise your asking rate by 10%
- helloworld 10y ago
  Or maybe 11.111%, so you're back to where you started.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

welly 10y ago

A client I did some work a while ago for didn't so much refuse to pay but just didn't pay. Excuses, ignoring emails/calls etc. After about 7 months of this going on, I told them that they had 5 days to pay otherwise the only copy of the site I'd built for them was going to be deleted and I'd just accept the loss. The website wasn't actually live at this point but obviously they wanted it live because they paid up fairly promptly.

secfirstmd 10y ago

Name them!

logicallee 10y ago

Just to clarify, were they half an hour over the 24 hours incidentally - or did you follow the protocol you outlined and they reacted in the next half hour?

bujak 10y ago

Ahaha i lost it at 24.5 imagining how they scrambled to the bank when they actually did saw porn on their landing page