4 ms·

How can the room I am sitting in be simultaneously out there and, as it were, inside my head, my experience? We still have no answer to that question. Real

How can the room I am sitting in be simultaneously out there and, as it were, inside my head, my experience? We still have no answer to that question. Really? It seems quite obvious that events "out there" can affect what's going on "in here" (i.e. my brain) via sound, light, direct contact, etc. Consciousness is a difficult problem, yes, but there's no need to make it seem even more difficult than it actually is.

breckinloggins 10y ago
I share your confusion with this part of an otherwise-excellent article. It was such a surprise to read it that I fear I'm missing something. It seems obvious that what we're experiencing isn't the world or any so-called "objects" in it, but a structured representation of the whole and its parts. The hard part is understanding why: 1. Representations experience themselves at all 2. Representations seem to feel different depending on their structure and relationships to other representations Does anyone have a better interpretation of this paragraph that highlights the supposed mystery about our connection to "the real world"?
- aaimnr 10y ago
  If you both want to see the mystery replace 'the real world' with 'noumenon' and read some Immanuel Kant. He wrote awfully lot about the 'supposed mystery' :) BTW. your parent seems to mistake "inside" with "the brain" which seems like a category error. "It seems obvious that what we're experiencing isn't the world or any so-called "objects" in it, but a structured representation of the whole and its parts." What do you mean by "the whole and its parts"? Do you mean that what we experience for our whole life is just a play of representations created by our mind? Because it seems to be the case. And when you think about it, it is as mindfucky as possible. It may be obvious for you (is it?), but most people act as if it were very far from obvious as in each action most of us attribute real, independent existence to most constructs of our minds that, under scrutiny, are completely arbitrary. Once you understand that you construct the whole world, you also start to understand how many ways to construct it are there (Sapir-Whorf etc.). Once you understand how fundamentally these possible understandings may differ, you start to appreciate how arbitrary 'your world' is. And then you start to wonder WTF is 'real world'? What is 'out there'? Is there anything at all? Just a loose association, but isn't your question a bit like asking "what's wrong with this picture" ? http://personalpages.to.infn.it/~fiorenti/escher/pgallery.gif http://personalpages.to.infn.it/~fiorenti/escher/pgallery.gi... On the other hand I understand your question perfectly. It's even hard to tell whether there is something strange about it or not.
  - brianberns 10y ago
    BTW. your parent seems to mistake "inside" with "the brain" which seems like a category error. I was just paraphrasing the article itself, which says "inside my head". I think it's pretty clear what this means.
    - aaimnr 10y ago
      Sure, fair enough.
- placebo 10y ago
  I'll give it a shot based on my current understanding of non-dual pointers. The perceived mystery is that of two seemingly separate realities existing - one being the unquestionable objective reality believed to be "out there" vs. the unquestionable reality of the experience "in here". But where exactly is "there" and where exactly is "here"? Could it be that the separation is artificial? Aeons of evolution created the ability of a process in brains of evolving organism to create ever more complex concepts, culminating eventually with the concept of an "I" to whom things are believed to happen, thereby slowly changing a global experience of "reality just is" to a belief in "I experience reality". Meditation (which has been mentioned a few times) is not supposed to be some non-scientific escape to a subjective mystical state but a brutally honest inspection into the source of separation into objectivity and subjectivity - the source of this "I". Those who manage to see through it claim that ultimately, there is nothing other than consciousness. Much as I'd like to, I can't claim to know, but logically, after thinking about it for a long time, it seems to make more and more sense.
openfuture 10y ago
Well if you go down to it then the only thing you know is that you are witnessing your perception everything else is an assumption.

breckinloggins 10y ago

I share your confusion with this part of an otherwise-excellent article. It was such a surprise to read it that I fear I'm missing something. It seems obvious that what we're experiencing isn't the world or any so-called "objects" in it, but a structured representation of the whole and its parts. The hard part is understanding why: 1. Representations experience themselves at all 2. Representations seem to feel different depending on their structure and relationships to other representations Does anyone have a better interpretation of this paragraph that highlights the supposed mystery about our connection to "the real world"?

aaimnr 10y ago
If you both want to see the mystery replace 'the real world' with 'noumenon' and read some Immanuel Kant. He wrote awfully lot about the 'supposed mystery' :) BTW. your parent seems to mistake "inside" with "the brain" which seems like a category error. "It seems obvious that what we're experiencing isn't the world or any so-called "objects" in it, but a structured representation of the whole and its parts." What do you mean by "the whole and its parts"? Do you mean that what we experience for our whole life is just a play of representations created by our mind? Because it seems to be the case. And when you think about it, it is as mindfucky as possible. It may be obvious for you (is it?), but most people act as if it were very far from obvious as in each action most of us attribute real, independent existence to most constructs of our minds that, under scrutiny, are completely arbitrary. Once you understand that you construct the whole world, you also start to understand how many ways to construct it are there (Sapir-Whorf etc.). Once you understand how fundamentally these possible understandings may differ, you start to appreciate how arbitrary 'your world' is. And then you start to wonder WTF is 'real world'? What is 'out there'? Is there anything at all? Just a loose association, but isn't your question a bit like asking "what's wrong with this picture" ? http://personalpages.to.infn.it/~fiorenti/escher/pgallery.gif http://personalpages.to.infn.it/~fiorenti/escher/pgallery.gi... On the other hand I understand your question perfectly. It's even hard to tell whether there is something strange about it or not.
- brianberns 10y ago
  BTW. your parent seems to mistake "inside" with "the brain" which seems like a category error. I was just paraphrasing the article itself, which says "inside my head". I think it's pretty clear what this means.
  - aaimnr 10y ago
    Sure, fair enough.
placebo 10y ago
I'll give it a shot based on my current understanding of non-dual pointers. The perceived mystery is that of two seemingly separate realities existing - one being the unquestionable objective reality believed to be "out there" vs. the unquestionable reality of the experience "in here". But where exactly is "there" and where exactly is "here"? Could it be that the separation is artificial? Aeons of evolution created the ability of a process in brains of evolving organism to create ever more complex concepts, culminating eventually with the concept of an "I" to whom things are believed to happen, thereby slowly changing a global experience of "reality just is" to a belief in "I experience reality". Meditation (which has been mentioned a few times) is not supposed to be some non-scientific escape to a subjective mystical state but a brutally honest inspection into the source of separation into objectivity and subjectivity - the source of this "I". Those who manage to see through it claim that ultimately, there is nothing other than consciousness. Much as I'd like to, I can't claim to know, but logically, after thinking about it for a long time, it seems to make more and more sense.

openfuture 10y ago

Well if you go down to it then the only thing you know is that you are witnessing your perception everything else is an assumption.