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Freelance Isn't Free Act Passes in NYC
- Freestyler_3 10y agoI think it's great they finally got some protection. Why wasn't it there before and what was the oppositions point of view on this?
- mc32 10y agoMy guess is most people thought the current small claims process would be the tool people would use. Maybe it worked when it was a small portion of the workforce, but now as more people do freelancing, it makes sense to have a dedicated state for them to seek redress.
- bluetwo 10y agoGood to see, even if it doesn't impact me. I like the idea of penalties for non-payment. I've never had a problem collecting $5,000, but people will regularly avoid paying small amounts ($500) because (I assume) they know you won't put as much effort into collecting.
- devoply 10y agoIf you are collecting 5k at a time, you are doing it wrong. Your client should not be holding more than 1,000 of your money at a time.
- blhack 10y ago$1000 is what a well paid software consultant makes in about a day. I can't think of a single person that does daily payments for consulting, and I feel like this would be a huge red flag if they asked for it.
- tptacek 10y agoSerious consultancies routinely have 6-7 figure receivables from individual clients. Why should indie consultants handicap themselves?
- enraged_camel 10y agoWe are a "serious consultancy." The only clients we have large figure receivables with are long-term clients our owner has a personal relationship with. All other clients (over 90% of them) are billed immediately and all bills are due in 30 days. At the end of the day it's a matter of how much risk you can afford. I would never hold it against a freelancer if they wanted to get paid right away.
- morgante 10y agoWhat do you mean by "billed immediately?" $5,000 is maybe a week of work. I'm generally not billing more than once a week.
- enraged_camel 10y agoIt depends on the terms of payment. For example, for some of our projects we collect 50% of payment upfront and 50% upon project completion. The client is "billed immediately" at those times. We also have "open-ended" projects where the client can use our services on an ad-hoc (as opposed to per project) basis. For those, we bill the client once a month, on the last day of the month.
- tptacek 10y agoIn high-dollar consulting, up-front payment is a super weird term. Friends and acquaintances ask me for sanity checks on bids and pricing and deal structure all the time. If I ever see "pay me up front", I red-flag. If you're dealing with a client where you feel you really need a safety deposit, that's a sign from the universe that they shouldn't be your client. Do what you need to when you're just getting started, I get it. But try to move away from the kind of work where you get paid half up front, as soon as you can.
- patio11 10y agoI think this is part of my pathological customers thesis: you won't simply have more headaches at $500 than $5k because the customers are more evil about $500 invoices. You'll have more problems because _people who get into $500 consulting relationships are disproportionately flakes_. You get less flaky behavior from your $5k clients because people who buy $5k services are disproportionately not flakes; the $5k sticker price is kryptonite to flakes. Bargain-seeking consulting consumers have irrational expectations for what $500 buys them. The $500 is likely coming out of a personal pocket or a pocket which they treat as personal, not out of a Budget which gets handled like an honest-to-God business. They are disproportionately likely to have overcommitted that $500 -- it's perhaps not their last $500, but your invoice is sitting with a number of other invoices and it may not be possible to settle them all simultaneously. Many of my consulting friends move up-market and find that up-market consists of businesses run by disproportionately mentally healthy people who disproportionately have money in the bank and disproportionately conduct themselves with professional mien like paying invoices in a fashion that suggests their company has paid an invoice before.
- bluetwo 10y agoInteresting perspective. Thanks for sharing.
- tooFastFuckYou 10y ago51 votes? Why do they keep crowing about that figure, when they don't say WHO the voters were or how many there were or how many opposed it? My reaction was, 51 votes in a city of millions? And then... do they mean it only passed by a margin of 51 votes? Why is that figure in the headline, if not?
- relics443 10y agoMy first freelance job was for a prestigious organization. They refused to pay, because (in their words) "no one will listen to you if you file anything anyways" and they had denied that I did the work. I told them that they had 24 hours to pay me and acknowledge my work, or I'd put porn on their landing page. 24.5 hours later I got paid.
- martin-adams 10y agoDid you also charge them to clean up the homepage?
- relics443 10y agoI didn't, but it was only after some serious internal debate.
- JoshTriplett 10y agoFunny, but at the same time, that could also get you sued (or potentially even prosecuted), and nobody would have much sympathy for you.
- relics443 10y agoI was worried about that, but I just couldn't resist. Besides, they were the type of organization that wouldn't have wanted that to get out.
- mgkimsal 10y agoI'd have loads of sympathy for the OP. As would thousands of others.
- 77pt77 10y agoHow many people in a jury do you think would share your feelings?
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- zeveb 10y ago> Passing with 51 votes, the Freelance Isn’t Free Act requires written contracts for freelance gigs, allows freelancers to file complaints against non and late-paying clients with the Department of Labor Standards, and institutes penalties against clients found guilty of nonpayment in small claims court. Requiring written contracts seems like a handout to lawyers. Alternatively, it seems like a clever way to enable folks with only a verbal contract to refuse to pay, since a verbal contract is now illegal. Contracts are already enforceable at law, so how does this actually improve things?
- Spooky23 10y agoCompared to an industry like construction, or the professions, freelancers have poor protections because they get treated like corporate relationships instead of casual employees. Sounds like this gives the NYC labor standards folks to accept complaints and sanction bad employers. I'm imagine that requiring verbal contracts would be something that you could complain about. Written agreements don't necessarily mean that you need lawyers involved and are always a good idea unless you're getting paid on demand. When I was in a corporate gig as a second level manager, I could sign off of statements of work under $50k with a contract framework. I'm sure an entity like freelancers union will create a base agreement for these sorts of things, if they haven't already.
- Radle 10y ago"since a verbal contract is now illegal" You'd have to check the actual passage, I doubt a verbal contract ist illegal.
- skybrian 10y agoIf written contracts are the norm then it makes it harder for people to simply lie and turn it into a he said/she said scenario.
- CydeWeys 10y agoHaving written contracts works in the favor of the freelancer, who now have a much stronger leg to stand on when they insist on written contracts from clients. When contracts are nebulous, the one who ends up getting screwed is usually the freelancer, because they're the ones who need to get paid.
- misotaur 10y agoAn indication also that self-employment is growing everywhere.In a few decades it might even be the new normal.
- mastre_ 10y agoIn tech, I think it will be a lot sooner than in few decades. I think things will change at such a rapid pace that we can't even accurately predict what will be the new normal in a few decades, particularly in tech. Also, we must also consider the possibility, and implications, of strong AI in a few decades.
- drdeadringer 10y agoI'm embarrassed to say that it took me 8 years to realize that staying at any one particular employer for "a long time", e.g. 4+ years, is increasingly an unrealistic life goal.
- joatmon-snoo 10y agoThe site itself isn't too clear about the specific benefits of the legislation[1], but the most recent committee report on the legislation is much more enlightening (the tl;dr being that it introduces powerful remedies for freelancers who are denied their just desserts - I don't understand the emphasis on the contract stuff, but IANAL): > Any action alleging a violation of section 20-929, unlawful payment practices, would have to be brought within six years after the acts alleged to violate the proposed chapter. A plaintiff who prevails on this cause of action would be awarded double damages, injunctive relief and other such remedies as appropriate. All awards of damages would also include attorney’s fees and costs. > Any action alleging a violation of section 20-930, retaliation, would have to be brought within six years after the acts alleged to violate the proposed chapter. A plaintiff who prevails on this cause of action would be awarded damages equal to the full value of the contract. All awards of damages would also include attorney’s fees and costs. > Section 20-934 of the chapter would provide for a civil action for a pattern or practice of violations. Where reasonable cause exists to believe that a hiring party has engaged in a pattern or practice of violations, the Corporation Counsel may commence legal action on behalf of the City in a court of competent jurisdiction. Such an action would be commenced by filing a complaint setting forth the facts relating to the alleged pattern or practice of violations and requesting relief, which could include injunctive relief, civil penalties and any other appropriate relief. The filing of a pattern or practice complaint by the City would not prohibit any complaint or civil action by a freelance worker. Upon a finding that a hiring party has engaged in a pattern or practice of violations, the trier of fact could impose a civil penalty of up to $25,000. > Section 20-935 would provide additional details about how the proposed chapter would apply and how it would interact with other laws. Subdivision a would provide that, except as otherwise provided by law, any provision of a contract that purports to waive the rights granted by this chapter is void as against public policy. Subdivision b would provide that the provisions of this chapter would supplement and not diminish or replace any other basis of liability or other requirement established by statute or common law. Subdivision c would provide that failure to comply with the provisions of this chapter would not void or impair a contract between a hiring party and freelance worker. Finally, subdivision d would provide that nothing in this chapter shall be construed as providing a determination about the legal classification of any individual as an employee or independent contractor. [1] http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=2530972&GUID=61F8754B-80AF-493E-895E-D6D17209776E http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=25... [2] (warning: DOC file) http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/View.ashx?M=F&ID=4746382&GUID=4F62986F-AFE5-4702-9CE1-CA2F40578E4B http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/View.ashx?M=F&ID=4746382&GUI...
- tehwebguy 10y agoFYI you can fill out a 2-3 page worksheet to file a breach of contract lawsuit in LA county. It's not limited by small claims caps and is an inexpensive first step compared to hiring an attorney to send a scare letter. Didn't end up needing to file the one I wrote up last year but it was liberating to know that there was a half-step measure. Before doing it I called 12 attorneys in Los Angeles and everyone respectfully told me a $20k unpaid bill is not worth their time, but the last one told me about filing on my own.
- sean_patel 10y agoHow do we get this for California? Is the Freelance job litigated on where the Freelancer is physically located, or where the client is located?
- patio11 10y agoIt's where the tort giving rise to the suit happened, a question which is complicated and lawyer-worthy if this ever comes up. Most MSAs will have both parties stipulate to the jurisdiction of a particular county's courts; generally, the party supplying the MSA picks their local court system because it's cheaper to access, known to them, and has the home-field advantage.
- unethical_ban 10y agoIsn't this solving the problem of short-sighted freelancers, rather than non-payment? I see posts here that reinforce my expectation: Have a contract, and it can be enforced by law. What does this bill enable a citizen to do, that they couldn't legally do on their own before?
- Mz 10y agoI don't know if it is good legislation. But it is groundbreaking legislation and important due to the rise of the Gig Economy. It introduces the idea that Gig Workers deserve legal protection, just like regular employees.
- jedberg 10y agoIt doesn't actually allow them to do anything they couldn't legally do before, but it makes the penalties a lot stiffer to discourage large companies from breaking the law. The problem before was that even if you had a contract, the company would basically say "we have a lot more to spend on lawyers than you, good luck". Now they have changed that calculation with this law, where if the big company loses it's a huge cost to them. So now their calculation is that it is cheaper to pay their bill than to fight you in court.
- blisterpeanuts 10y agoThis law sounds good, but what kind of unintended consequences might result? I wonder if instead of stiffing their contractors, customers will instead be the ones getting stiffed by unscrupulous contractors. I.e., contractors over-billing: "If you don't pay the amount I'm demanding, I'll report you." Companies might indeed pay the bill rather than risk a fine, but at the same time, they might become much more reluctant to hire contractors at all. I worry that this kind of well-intentioned law will in fact reduce opportunities for free-lance people, in favor of consulting agencies.
- Ensorceled 10y agoWell, this is mainly intended to enforce contracts NOT disputes for uncontracted services so how would you be in this mode. It will force less boilerplate contracts.
- willcodeforbeer 10y agoAlmost a decade of freelancing with customer all over the world with little more than an email exchange most of the time and I have had next to zero issue with getting stiffed. Requiring written contracts will likely force businesses to use services Freelancer.com which will just mean that instead of one on one relationships you'll be forced to compete against a pool of competition racing you to the bottom and won't get paid directly.
- willcodeforbeer 10y agoAlmost a decade of freelancing with customer all over the world with little more than an email exchange most of the time and I have had next to zero issue with getting stiffed. Requiring written contracts will likely force businesses to use services such as Freelancer.com which will just mean that instead of one on one relationships you'll be forced to compete against a pool of competition racing you to the bottom and you won't get paid directly.
- busterarm 10y agoHaving been in NYC nearly my whole life and the entire time seen a culture of contractors getting fucked over on payment, especially in entertainment/media/fashion/advertising, this is a great, GREAT day. Animation studios here are among the worst. Most people I know had to fight for months to get paid and many did years of work without ever getting paid. YEARS. Like they did it for the love or something. A few years back, a whole studio was contracted for a project and mid-way to completion the client came to them and said "I spoke to God and He told me not to do this project" and walked away from it and never paid for anything. The studio didn't even have any kind of protection against this sort of thing. You can't imagine how bad an environment this is for getting paid for creative work. Indefinite illegal internships, lowball salaries and "for the exposure" jobs abound. Folks are so desperate to come and work here that they put up with it -- I just don't know how they afford it.
- wheelerwj 10y agoWtf is this nonsense? You want to run an independent business but you don't want the hassle of billing, just pass a law so that you dont have too!