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Battery tech in general is really the limiting factor for environmental improvements of solar and wind over other common forms of energy. We need more advances

Battery tech in general is really the limiting factor for environmental improvements of solar and wind over other common forms of energy. We need more advances here, and they shouldn't all come from Elon Musk. One of the toughest things to overcome is that lithium ion batteries have a limited lifespan (although it's improving) and the cost for that life span compared to alternatives is pretty high, so the economics aren't great. Yet. The environmental hazards, both in manufacturing and disposal, are not insignificant either[1]. With all that said, li-ion represents our best bet for future tech advances that have minimal environmental impact, especially for space travel. Eventually. (But if I was a VC, I'd be investing in cleaner and more efficient ways to utilize petrochemicals in the near/mid term.. maybe looking at non-burning tech; whatever happened to fuel cells?) 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Environmental_concerns_and_recycling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Environmen...

bebop 10y ago
> whatever happened to fuel cells? Toyota is actually coming out with a hydrogen fuel cell car: https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/ https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/
- jdietrich 10y ago
  It's already out. Toyota will only sell you one if you live near a hydrogen filling station, which are few and far between at the moment. Hydrogen is looking like a dead duck, at least as an automotive fuel. The Mirai costs about the same as a mid-range Tesla Model S. I know which I'd rather own.
Retric 10y ago
Fuel cells are low efficiency (<60%) and expensive so they are a poor fit for grid energy storage. One option is to just burn hydrogen in traditional gas turbines which can also have 60% efficiency ed: (62.22%), but are much cheaper to build. PS: This also simplifies the problem to: Can you make and store hydrogen for a lower cost than natural gas.
- 69mlgsniperdad 10y ago
  Don't forget the massive inefficiency of electrolysis.
- Retric 10y ago
  Someone under shadow ban mentioned the inefficiency of electrolysis. Which is also around 60% at best. That is an important consideration, but on a national level it may still be useful as redundant capacity. If your hydrogen tanks are fill up over months when production is vastly above demand, and only used in very rare situations then it might still be viable. At that point it's more a question of economics then thermodynamics. However, the standby generators which use this hydrogen are a more direct comparison in cost and efficiency terms.
yo-code-sucks 10y ago
Fuel cells are extremely inefficient.
pedalpete 10y ago
The 'limited lifespan' of lithium batteries ma not be such a deal killer in the near term. As batteries in cars get used up, they aren't dead, they are just not powerful enough to be carried around anymore. After that, than can be put to use in stationary power while they continue to degrade. I suspect this is one of the reasons the powerwall makes so much sense for Tesla. The battery comes out of a car and then they re-sell it to go into somebodies house. There is a start-up in Melbourne working on this model as well. http://www.relectrify.com/ http://www.relectrify.com/

bebop 10y ago

> whatever happened to fuel cells? Toyota is actually coming out with a hydrogen fuel cell car: https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/ https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/

jdietrich 10y ago
It's already out. Toyota will only sell you one if you live near a hydrogen filling station, which are few and far between at the moment. Hydrogen is looking like a dead duck, at least as an automotive fuel. The Mirai costs about the same as a mid-range Tesla Model S. I know which I'd rather own.

Retric 10y ago

Fuel cells are low efficiency (<60%) and expensive so they are a poor fit for grid energy storage. One option is to just burn hydrogen in traditional gas turbines which can also have 60% efficiency ed: (62.22%), but are much cheaper to build. PS: This also simplifies the problem to: Can you make and store hydrogen for a lower cost than natural gas.

69mlgsniperdad 10y ago
Don't forget the massive inefficiency of electrolysis.
Retric 10y ago
Someone under shadow ban mentioned the inefficiency of electrolysis. Which is also around 60% at best. That is an important consideration, but on a national level it may still be useful as redundant capacity. If your hydrogen tanks are fill up over months when production is vastly above demand, and only used in very rare situations then it might still be viable. At that point it's more a question of economics then thermodynamics. However, the standby generators which use this hydrogen are a more direct comparison in cost and efficiency terms.

yo-code-sucks 10y ago

Fuel cells are extremely inefficient.

pedalpete 10y ago

The 'limited lifespan' of lithium batteries ma not be such a deal killer in the near term. As batteries in cars get used up, they aren't dead, they are just not powerful enough to be carried around anymore. After that, than can be put to use in stationary power while they continue to degrade. I suspect this is one of the reasons the powerwall makes so much sense for Tesla. The battery comes out of a car and then they re-sell it to go into somebodies house. There is a start-up in Melbourne working on this model as well. http://www.relectrify.com/ http://www.relectrify.com/