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Current Li-on packs are good for 2000 cycles, about 8 years. Even when you include mining and manufacturing the environmental impact is still negligible compare

by yardie 10y ago

Current Li-on packs are good for 2000 cycles, about 8 years. Even when you include mining and manufacturing the environmental impact is still negligible compared to running on diesel 24/7/365.

Cshelton 10y ago
I believe Tesla is giving these pack a much longer life span. I know one of the chief engineers for their batteries said the old batteries that exist in the Model S and X today could last many more cycles with a 15-20 year life span. I think we're seeing good evidence of this too as Tesla's are reaching 100k+ miles, one got to 200k already and I believe only had ~11% battery degradation. Pretty impressive either way. As far as mining, I think the biggest issues as far as cost go are getting Cobalt, which is primarily only found in the DR Congos', and then in Tesla's case, finding more Lithium in North America. I'm sure in a ~5 years or so, Tesla will create a massive battery recycling program as well to start bringing in those Tesla batteries on cars from the early models.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  > I believe Tesla is giving these pack a much longer life span. Tesla's CTO is giving the battery packs a 10-15 year minimum service life. > I'm sure in a ~5 years or so, Tesla will create a massive battery recycling program as well to start bringing in those Tesla batteries on cars from the early models. Tesla plans a recycling line at the Gigafactory. Old batteries in, new packs out.
greglindahl 10y ago
Note that your 8 year number has 2 assumptions buried in it: (1) that batteries are discharged/charged every day, and (2) that batteries need to be replaced once they reach ~ 70% of their original capacity. Neither of these assumptions is apply to grid-scale storage. For (2), you can install 30% new capacity and keep the old batteries in service. And for (1), the size of the battery storage is dictated by wanting to last 3 cloudy days... which rarely happens. So you might only cycle 1/3 of the batteries on an average day.
- yardie 10y ago
  All I have is the industry numbers. On average they all claim 1000 cycles at 80% DoD. They'll certainly get longer usage given a lower DoD, but if they design a bare bones system it could have enough to last 1,3,5, or 10 days
  - greglindahl 10y ago
    TFA says 3 days for this one.
antisthenes 10y ago
You have a source for that 2000 cycle number? In reality, with somewhat deep discharges, the number is actually closer to 600-700, before experiencing significant capacity losses of ~15-20%. At 2000 cycles, I'd imagine the capacity to be somewhere in the range of 50% of initial. Now that doesn't matter for utility scale, because you can easily keep that 50% pack in operation, as long as your total capacity stays the same (adding new packs), but for smaller scale, it's quite significant. Look up Nissan Leaf range degradation and you'll see what I mean.
- yardie 10y ago
  I'm actually a Leaf shopper so I have looked into it. From what I understand the degradation comes from the older design being aircooled. In southern climes this won't work for long. The Leafs from 2015 are using a liquid-cooled pack. Older models are getting them replaced under warranty.

by yardie 10y ago

Current Li-on packs are good for 2000 cycles, about 8 years. Even when you include mining and manufacturing the environmental impact is still negligible compared to running on diesel 24/7/365.

Cshelton 10y ago

I believe Tesla is giving these pack a much longer life span. I know one of the chief engineers for their batteries said the old batteries that exist in the Model S and X today could last many more cycles with a 15-20 year life span. I think we're seeing good evidence of this too as Tesla's are reaching 100k+ miles, one got to 200k already and I believe only had ~11% battery degradation. Pretty impressive either way. As far as mining, I think the biggest issues as far as cost go are getting Cobalt, which is primarily only found in the DR Congos', and then in Tesla's case, finding more Lithium in North America. I'm sure in a ~5 years or so, Tesla will create a massive battery recycling program as well to start bringing in those Tesla batteries on cars from the early models.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
> I believe Tesla is giving these pack a much longer life span. Tesla's CTO is giving the battery packs a 10-15 year minimum service life. > I'm sure in a ~5 years or so, Tesla will create a massive battery recycling program as well to start bringing in those Tesla batteries on cars from the early models. Tesla plans a recycling line at the Gigafactory. Old batteries in, new packs out.

greglindahl 10y ago

Note that your 8 year number has 2 assumptions buried in it: (1) that batteries are discharged/charged every day, and (2) that batteries need to be replaced once they reach ~ 70% of their original capacity. Neither of these assumptions is apply to grid-scale storage. For (2), you can install 30% new capacity and keep the old batteries in service. And for (1), the size of the battery storage is dictated by wanting to last 3 cloudy days... which rarely happens. So you might only cycle 1/3 of the batteries on an average day.

yardie 10y ago
All I have is the industry numbers. On average they all claim 1000 cycles at 80% DoD. They'll certainly get longer usage given a lower DoD, but if they design a bare bones system it could have enough to last 1,3,5, or 10 days
- greglindahl 10y ago
  TFA says 3 days for this one.

antisthenes 10y ago

You have a source for that 2000 cycle number? In reality, with somewhat deep discharges, the number is actually closer to 600-700, before experiencing significant capacity losses of ~15-20%. At 2000 cycles, I'd imagine the capacity to be somewhere in the range of 50% of initial. Now that doesn't matter for utility scale, because you can easily keep that 50% pack in operation, as long as your total capacity stays the same (adding new packs), but for smaller scale, it's quite significant. Look up Nissan Leaf range degradation and you'll see what I mean.

yardie 10y ago
I'm actually a Leaf shopper so I have looked into it. From what I understand the degradation comes from the older design being aircooled. In southern climes this won't work for long. The Leafs from 2015 are using a liquid-cooled pack. Older models are getting them replaced under warranty.