Note this civil war reply is on a separate sub-thread try going back to the main post and searching for my username, I think you may have confused my Germany/Ja

Note this civil war reply is on a separate sub-thread try going back to the main post and searching for my username, I think you may have confused my Germany/Japan reply with it. --- As for the civil war reply even though you mentioned it as an aside and trying not to go there because I saw some things I strongly disagreed with so I responded. Also the Civil War is a fascinating case of the the Losers writing history. After the war the need to reconcile the (white) north and south led to the end of reconstruction and any effort to enforce civil rights laws as well as a historical view that was pro-southern. Some of it was only taught in the south but much of it gained acceptance in the north. The war was about states rights not slavery, the confederacy was a noble but doomed effort to maintain a souther way of life. Reconstruction was a corrupt effort to elevate black people above white people. But after the civil rights era these views started unraveling. Historians now think that it was about slavery. Or rather the south succeeded due to slavery and the south shot first. Reconstruction included a bold effort to give freed slaves civil rights they wouldn't have a chance to get for 100 years and if it was at times bungling and corrupt its not like "regular" southern politics afterwards was better. And something else that you said got to me. > and I think any reasonable person can agree that many people did not need to die, whether it be to preserve the union or defend the civil rights of African Americans (England freed their slaves with no war) -- another tragedy of American history that should be learned from to never happen again, not upheld as an example of excellence. It was excellence. I wouldn't like to fight a civil war again but despite a few faults Lincoln is probably the best president we ever had, he kept the union strong and determined, and won the war and freed the slaves. Yes if there had been a way to do it without violence it would have been preferable (Lincoln himself introduced a compensated emancipation bill for slaves) but due to Southern determination to hold on to slavery (rebelling when a man who promised to lead to the eventual abolition of slavery got elected) it wasn't possible.