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There are several policy areas where doctors feel they have more to add than they actually do: tobacco discussion, whether or not bicycle helmets should be lega

by roel_v 10y ago

There are several policy areas where doctors feel they have more to add than they actually do: tobacco discussion, whether or not bicycle helmets should be legally required, euthanasia/abortion issues (the moral aspects of it, not the technical ones), ... I think it's a remnant from when doctors were part of the 'upper class' of the village (or even city), along with the priest, the school teacher, etc. Whereas today, in more educated circles at least in my observation, doctors are just body mechanics. They derive most of their status from their pay. (Much less so e.g. in the small town I'm from, where doctors are still respected just for being a doctor - but are paid less). Edit to add: I'm not going to modify my comment above because that invalidates all the responses, but it seems like all responses are taking the wrong message from my post: I'm not making some sort of moral judgement on the work of doctors, what I'm saying is that doctors aren't any longer so special that they're part of the intellectual elite (and hence are consulted on topics being their expertise) just for being a doctor. Sure most doctors do work that's beneficial to many people, but so do teachers, and I don't think anyone is going to claim that teachers have high status in society (because of it, or at all).

germinalphrase 10y ago
I feel like this is a narrative for which I am nostalgic despite being too young to have ever really experienced even though I grew up in a small town. I wish that those in my community who serve their neighbors in an important way were more respected socially. Sure, the local paramedic - Sam - doesn't make a lot of money, but everyone knows he's a good guy you can rely on. Everything feels so transactional.
- ryuker16 10y ago
  many paramedics work for a private company for peanuts. Public figures are still respected. I suppose it's less so because education is more common. The Gulf between a medical doctor and your average citizen was huge
enraged_camel 10y ago
It completely depends on the type of doctor. If we're talking about GPs, then sure, their work is mostly standard and they refer anything non-standard to a specialist. But specialists are definitely held in very high regard in their social circle. Surgeons especially. >>They derive most of their status from their pay. No, they derive it from the insane amounts of education, training and hard work they have to put in to get to where they are at. It's basically "crunch time times two" all the time from the moment they start med school until they complete their residency, and only slightly lessens afterwards.
- roel_v 10y ago
  You know who also works hard? Juanita the single mom illegal immigrant who works one job in the chicken factory during the day and another cleaning motel rooms in the evening to feed her 4 children, and still barely scrapes by. How much status does she have? I'm not dismissing how much doctors study, or how hard they work (outside of GP's and some specialties like dermatology). Many of my friends and family are doctors. While I agree that I might have phrased my comment a bit more carefully, it's awfully lazy to just conclude from what I said as 'doctors are only after the money'. My real point was - being a doctor no longer (by itself) makes one an intellectual. Knowing quite a lot of doctors myself, I can tell from firsthand experience that many of them are just as (un)informed and (dumb|smart) as the, say, smartest 1/3th of the population. Doctors have lots of highly specialized knowledge, yes; that doesn't make them better on issues that go beyond medical technicalities than a mathematician or lawyer.
  - naveen99 10y ago
    As a doctor, you are partially right. There are some doctors who look at their job as technicians for money. However there are some who really do go out of their way and give a 100% at the loss of their own family. But, probably so do some politicians... i agree with your point, that people's qualifications in one field don't necessary entitle them to a respect from authority in another field. tbe reason they are asking for doctors help in this is, to reduce the political fallout from people who respond to authority. They may as well also ask for help from teachers, firefighters, priests, airplane pilots (I believe Air Force even uses methamphetamines) ...
wfunction 10y ago
> today, in more educated circles at least in my observation, doctors are just body mechanics. They derive most of their status from their pay. ...WTF? Is it even possible to write a more egotistical comment? Most doctors (especially surgeons, etc.), along with firefighters, police, etc. derive their respect in "educated circles" not from their pay (that's some of the worst nonsense I've heard this week) but from the kind of work that they do: saving other people's lives, especially in situations where one small mistake on their end can prove fatal for one or more parties involved. That's quite sufficient to deserve a ton of respect just by itself....
- omegaham 10y ago
  > one small mistake on their end can prove fatal for one or more parties involved This right here is why I respect the hell out of doctors. Every morning, they wake up with the knowledge that today, they could kill someone through inattention or ignorance. I'm sure that they don't think about it that way while brushing their teeth or whatever, but that's an awesome responsibility.
  - Johnny555 10y ago
    Do you share the same respect for airline pilots, bus drivers, crane operators and all of the other occupations that can kill multiple people through inattention or ignorance?
    - truth_sentinell 10y ago
      Hell, even software programmers can kill a lot of people by letting a bug slide. But I agree that in general, doctors have a bigger and more direct responsability in that matter.
    - makingithappen 10y ago
      I do respect those people, but the comparison to my profession is ludicrous. Here's what happened just today at work for me: Before noon, I received two patients in septic shock. Both required intubation and central lines. One required a chest tube. Early in the afternoon I had my finger directly compressing a carotid artery that was spraying across the room as my staff tried to call in the vascular surgeon. Around 1800 PM I got a rapid GI bleeder who died spilling blood out both ends. Because it happened within 24 hours of an admission, the medical examiner had to be involved. She was young. One other existing patient in the ICU died of septic shock around 2000. I stayed until well past midnight talking to families, putting out fires, dealing with loose ends and spending time with the floor residents to make sure they know how to handle events like this without having a breakdown (not that I've figured it out yet). I just got home and will have to go back in about 5 hours from now and face who-knows-what. My friend, a neurosurgeon, is still in the neuro-ICU at this hour (it's about 0100 local time). Oh and flu season is coming up; that's when shit really hits the fan. I realize that isn't a typical day for most doctors (nor is it a routine day for me; but not a rare one either), but it is demeaning to suggest that the emotional impact of this kind of work or the relationships developed therein could be even remotely comparable to that of an airline pilot with his/her passengers. Oh, and I don't get paid a dime extra for being there 18 hours and assuming a bunch of extra risk. If the patient who's neck bled all over after surgery at another hospital decides to sue, I'll get added to the lawsuit, even though we saved his life. My point is not to demand "respect" or elevate myself above anyone else; I come from a pretty humble family and stayed that way for the most part. I simply don't think anybody has a comparable work environment, especially the emotional side, which is very hard to describe to other people. As for the parent post: opioid prescribing is complicated and is going to get worse as our "performance" becomes tied to patient satisfaction surveys. Won't affect me much, but will be a very difficult balance for primary care doctors.
prklmn 10y ago
The status you speak of for physicians in general is derived from saving lives - generally thought to be pretty honorable. Also, doctors who work in more rural areas are trending towards making more than those in cities and already do make more when cost of living is accounted for.
- coredog64 10y ago
  Not going to say a dermatologist or podiatrist can't save lives, but I think they get most of the respect granted doctors who do without the same effect on society.
  - digler999 10y ago
    My pet peeve is the "cosmetic surgeon", making obscene amounts of money and wasting valuable medical resources to pursue a practice of enabling vanity.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Public Health doctors get the least respect/money? And arguable do the most societal good of all, essentially saving all of us from epidemics etc.

by roel_v 10y ago

germinalphrase 10y ago

I feel like this is a narrative for which I am nostalgic despite being too young to have ever really experienced even though I grew up in a small town. I wish that those in my community who serve their neighbors in an important way were more respected socially. Sure, the local paramedic - Sam - doesn't make a lot of money, but everyone knows he's a good guy you can rely on. Everything feels so transactional.

ryuker16 10y ago
many paramedics work for a private company for peanuts. Public figures are still respected. I suppose it's less so because education is more common. The Gulf between a medical doctor and your average citizen was huge

enraged_camel 10y ago

It completely depends on the type of doctor. If we're talking about GPs, then sure, their work is mostly standard and they refer anything non-standard to a specialist. But specialists are definitely held in very high regard in their social circle. Surgeons especially. >>They derive most of their status from their pay. No, they derive it from the insane amounts of education, training and hard work they have to put in to get to where they are at. It's basically "crunch time times two" all the time from the moment they start med school until they complete their residency, and only slightly lessens afterwards.

roel_v 10y ago
You know who also works hard? Juanita the single mom illegal immigrant who works one job in the chicken factory during the day and another cleaning motel rooms in the evening to feed her 4 children, and still barely scrapes by. How much status does she have? I'm not dismissing how much doctors study, or how hard they work (outside of GP's and some specialties like dermatology). Many of my friends and family are doctors. While I agree that I might have phrased my comment a bit more carefully, it's awfully lazy to just conclude from what I said as 'doctors are only after the money'. My real point was - being a doctor no longer (by itself) makes one an intellectual. Knowing quite a lot of doctors myself, I can tell from firsthand experience that many of them are just as (un)informed and (dumb|smart) as the, say, smartest 1/3th of the population. Doctors have lots of highly specialized knowledge, yes; that doesn't make them better on issues that go beyond medical technicalities than a mathematician or lawyer.
- naveen99 10y ago
  As a doctor, you are partially right. There are some doctors who look at their job as technicians for money. However there are some who really do go out of their way and give a 100% at the loss of their own family. But, probably so do some politicians... i agree with your point, that people's qualifications in one field don't necessary entitle them to a respect from authority in another field. tbe reason they are asking for doctors help in this is, to reduce the political fallout from people who respond to authority. They may as well also ask for help from teachers, firefighters, priests, airplane pilots (I believe Air Force even uses methamphetamines) ...

wfunction 10y ago

> today, in more educated circles at least in my observation, doctors are just body mechanics. They derive most of their status from their pay. ...WTF? Is it even possible to write a more egotistical comment? Most doctors (especially surgeons, etc.), along with firefighters, police, etc. derive their respect in "educated circles" not from their pay (that's some of the worst nonsense I've heard this week) but from the kind of work that they do: saving other people's lives, especially in situations where one small mistake on their end can prove fatal for one or more parties involved. That's quite sufficient to deserve a ton of respect just by itself....

omegaham 10y ago
> one small mistake on their end can prove fatal for one or more parties involved This right here is why I respect the hell out of doctors. Every morning, they wake up with the knowledge that today, they could kill someone through inattention or ignorance. I'm sure that they don't think about it that way while brushing their teeth or whatever, but that's an awesome responsibility.
- Johnny555 10y ago
  Do you share the same respect for airline pilots, bus drivers, crane operators and all of the other occupations that can kill multiple people through inattention or ignorance?
  - truth_sentinell 10y ago
    Hell, even software programmers can kill a lot of people by letting a bug slide. But I agree that in general, doctors have a bigger and more direct responsability in that matter.
  - makingithappen 10y ago
    I do respect those people, but the comparison to my profession is ludicrous. Here's what happened just today at work for me: Before noon, I received two patients in septic shock. Both required intubation and central lines. One required a chest tube. Early in the afternoon I had my finger directly compressing a carotid artery that was spraying across the room as my staff tried to call in the vascular surgeon. Around 1800 PM I got a rapid GI bleeder who died spilling blood out both ends. Because it happened within 24 hours of an admission, the medical examiner had to be involved. She was young. One other existing patient in the ICU died of septic shock around 2000. I stayed until well past midnight talking to families, putting out fires, dealing with loose ends and spending time with the floor residents to make sure they know how to handle events like this without having a breakdown (not that I've figured it out yet). I just got home and will have to go back in about 5 hours from now and face who-knows-what. My friend, a neurosurgeon, is still in the neuro-ICU at this hour (it's about 0100 local time). Oh and flu season is coming up; that's when shit really hits the fan. I realize that isn't a typical day for most doctors (nor is it a routine day for me; but not a rare one either), but it is demeaning to suggest that the emotional impact of this kind of work or the relationships developed therein could be even remotely comparable to that of an airline pilot with his/her passengers. Oh, and I don't get paid a dime extra for being there 18 hours and assuming a bunch of extra risk. If the patient who's neck bled all over after surgery at another hospital decides to sue, I'll get added to the lawsuit, even though we saved his life. My point is not to demand "respect" or elevate myself above anyone else; I come from a pretty humble family and stayed that way for the most part. I simply don't think anybody has a comparable work environment, especially the emotional side, which is very hard to describe to other people. As for the parent post: opioid prescribing is complicated and is going to get worse as our "performance" becomes tied to patient satisfaction surveys. Won't affect me much, but will be a very difficult balance for primary care doctors.

prklmn 10y ago

The status you speak of for physicians in general is derived from saving lives - generally thought to be pretty honorable. Also, doctors who work in more rural areas are trending towards making more than those in cities and already do make more when cost of living is accounted for.

coredog64 10y ago
Not going to say a dermatologist or podiatrist can't save lives, but I think they get most of the respect granted doctors who do without the same effect on society.
- digler999 10y ago
  My pet peeve is the "cosmetic surgeon", making obscene amounts of money and wasting valuable medical resources to pursue a practice of enabling vanity.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Public Health doctors get the least respect/money? And arguable do the most societal good of all, essentially saving all of us from epidemics etc.