6 ms·

My Defamation 2.0 Experience

51 points by neilk 17y ago

zavulon 17y ago
While I'm definitely willing to give the author a benefit of a doubt, I don't see how he says his writing got taken out of context... In fact, context is even worse than the quoted words. “What is my position on pedophilia, then? It’s really simple. If the child doesn’t want it [sexual contact], is neutral or ambigious [sic], it’s inappropriate.” It omitted the sentence immediately following: “This excludes most adult/child sexual contact, but only little child/child contact.” He wants to defend the original writing with showing the next sentences, where he writes "this excludes MOST adult/child sexual contact"? Really? Which adult/child sexual contact is ok, then? And then: "A 16-year-old girl from Oregon, a beautiful, intelligent young woman" ... When one uses such language to talk about kids.. sheesh.
- eavc 17y ago
  Technically, an 18 year-old girl and a 17 year-old boy would be an adult/child relationship. Also, based on what I just read, it seems he is using pedophilia to describe sexuality between children. Playing doctor. Regardless, it is clear that the spirit of Gawker's "He supports child abuse!" is way, way off.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
- jafl5272 17y ago
  Only developed countries have the idea that you're an adult at 18 instead of 13 (or puberty). An irresponsible 16 year old might still be called a kid, but a responsible 16 year old deserves to be treated as an adult.
- jhuckestein 17y ago
  I'm pretty certain from the larger context that he's saying that most adult/child contact is inappropriate (excluded from being okay) whereas little child/child contact is inappropriate. Maybe it's a grammar problem with those sentences. In all his writings his stance is consistent and well-defined.
- Confusion 17y ago
  Which adult/child sexual contact is ok, then? The problem with sexual contact between an adult and a child is that one can never be sure that the child wasn't coerced in some way. However, that does not make the inverse true, that every instance of sexual contact between an adult and a child is subject to (implicit) abuse of power. It seems to me that Moeller was making a subtle point that I have also made in discussions about the subject: that it is perfectly possible to imagine a situation where sexual contact between an child and an adult takes place with mutual consent and without coercion. One can imagine a 12 year old seducing a 30 year old neighbor, without either of them being harmed by the experience. In many discussions, this can be a relevant point, that defuse blanket statements. This does not change a thing about the fact that you want the law to forbid such things. And then: "A 16-year-old girl from Oregon, a beautiful, intelligent young woman" ... When one uses such language to talk about kids.. sheesh. These 'kids' are old enough to bear children and have done so during the majority of human history. They have all secondary sexual characteristics that are intended to arouse the males of the species and they are fertile. If you don't find some of them attractive, something is unusual with your hormones.
  - tjic 17y ago
    > One can imagine a 12 year old seducing a 30 year old neighbor, without harming either of them. "One" can imagine that? I, for one, CAN NOT imagine that sexual contact between a 12 year old and a 30 year old can ever be anything other than a grave problem.
    - Confusion 17y ago
      There has been plenty of research into the way both men and women that have experienced early sexual contact rate those experiences later in their life, with many case stories. You would be surprised by the amount of positive experiences. They are only a minority and it doesn't change the way the law should be or the fact that we should disapprove of such encounters. However, it does change the 'ultimate evil' view that people tend to have of pedophilia. Like in the case of theft or murder, there are plenty of exceptions, where we can understand why someone would break the law. We may even sympathize with someone that kills an abusive husband or steals from Goldman-Sachs after losing everything. In the same way, we should be capable of sympathizing with some of the people that have committed an act of pedophilia.
- cabalamat 17y ago
  > And then: "A 16-year-old girl from Oregon, a beautiful, intelligent young woman" ... When one uses such language to talk about kids.. sheesh. Where I come from, people of that age can get married. There are current proposals, which will probably become law, allowing them to vote in elections. As others have pointed out, people of that age are generally fertile. To call someone who can get married, vote and bear children a child is, quite simply, silly.
eavc 17y ago
It occurs to me that we need a more nimble and inexpensive method for removing or forcing the correction of defamatory materials online. This is a common problem already, but as the web evolves to allow for more easily discoverable anonymous comments about average people (and it will), it will become an even more pervasive one.
- mortenjorck 17y ago
  Here's a startup idea: A centralized forum where people can respond to potentially defamatory content. Log in via OpenID or FB Connect, enter the offending link, and then tell your side of the story. Freemium model lets anyone do this, but you can verify your identity for a small fee. Alas, clearmy.name is currently squatted.
  - slapshot 17y ago
    A site like "Clearmy.name" would be useless unless Google brings that site up at the top or unless readers bothered to fact-check every allegation against that site. If you've ever gotten a chain letter by email, you know that people can't even be bothered to check Snopes.com before sending a dubious letter to hundreds of "friends", so I sadly doubt that a lot of people would check Clearmy.name.
- gojomo 17y ago
  Some jurisdictions have proposed a 'right of reply'. Online, this could mean potentially compelling online writers (such as bloggers) or aggregators (like search engines) to include prominent links to, or the text of, official responses from disputants. See for example: http://yalelawjournal.org/the-yale-law-journal-pocket-part/intellectual-property/don%E2%80%99t-censor-search/ http://yalelawjournal.org/the-yale-law-journal-pocket-part/i... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_reply http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_reply
  - eavc 17y ago
    Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind.
nolochemical 17y ago
"It must be true.. I read it on the internet." I can only laugh when people say things like this, much less think it.. the only other option would be to cry. The writers of this pathetic slander are cleary trying too hard.. The whole fiasco strangely reminds me of Stewie's cmments [ http://tinyurl.com/39tljey http://tinyurl.com/39tljey ].. Stewie Griffin: [infuriated] HOW DARE you reduce my finely-hewn thespian style into mere Mother Gooseries?
tjic 17y ago
> the anonymous smear letter ... quoted three sentences out of context: “What is my position on pedophilia, then? It’s really simple. If the child doesn’t want it [sexual contact], is neutral or ambigious [sic], it’s inappropriate.” If the only time that pedophilia is wrong is when the child does not want it, or is neutral about it, this makes it pretty clear that the writer thinks that sexual contact with children is acceptable if the child "wants" it (or claims to want it). It doesn't seem to be much of a stretch at all to conclude that the writer does defend some pedophilia.
- driax 17y ago
  From what I read in the article, I think what he thinks is that a child would never want sexual contact with an adult. Additional he explicitly says that if he had written something on the subject today he would be more explicit about his views om pedophilia. And he does explicit say that he "by definition" believe that pedophilia is wrong. (the "by definition"-part would probably best be changed to "always"). He can't really change what he wrote back then, and while I agree that there, in the quotes, he and you cited, are the posibility that he thinks some child/adult sex contact is okay, the entire article makes it rather clear that this is not his view.
- DrSprout 17y ago
  It's clear in context (and you've again taken the quote out of context) that he's referring to edge cases, like where a 16 year old was prosecuted for having sex with a 13 year old, and so on.
gojomo 17y ago
This incident is symptomatic of some of the special problems of online communication: decontextualization: it is easier than ever to remove excerpts from their original context, thus creating a more controversial interpretation, which is then rewarded with attention. differential propagation: salacious distortions travel faster than balanced understanding, because they're more interesting and compact. (They also resurrect spontaneously, the moment a distortion that's not paired with its antidote is rediscovered by a new forwarding-happy audience or new traffic-over-ethics aggregator.) Canonical reference and debunker sites (like Wikipedia and Snopes) help, but still can't outrace outrage-as-entertainment and the bonanza of profitable traffic it brings.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

51 points by neilk 17y ago

While I'm definitely willing to give the author a benefit of a doubt, I don't see how he says his writing got taken out of context... In fact, context is even worse than the quoted words. “What is my position on pedophilia, then? It’s really simple. If the child doesn’t want it [sexual contact], is neutral or ambigious [sic], it’s inappropriate.” It omitted the sentence immediately following: “This excludes most adult/child sexual contact, but only little child/child contact.” He wants to defend the original writing with showing the next sentences, where he writes "this excludes MOST adult/child sexual contact"? Really? Which adult/child sexual contact is ok, then? And then: "A 16-year-old girl from Oregon, a beautiful, intelligent young woman" ... When one uses such language to talk about kids.. sheesh.

eavc 17y ago
Technically, an 18 year-old girl and a 17 year-old boy would be an adult/child relationship. Also, based on what I just read, it seems he is using pedophilia to describe sexuality between children. Playing doctor. Regardless, it is clear that the spirit of Gawker's "He supports child abuse!" is way, way off.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
jafl5272 17y ago
Only developed countries have the idea that you're an adult at 18 instead of 13 (or puberty). An irresponsible 16 year old might still be called a kid, but a responsible 16 year old deserves to be treated as an adult.
jhuckestein 17y ago
I'm pretty certain from the larger context that he's saying that most adult/child contact is inappropriate (excluded from being okay) whereas little child/child contact is inappropriate. Maybe it's a grammar problem with those sentences. In all his writings his stance is consistent and well-defined.
Confusion 17y ago
Which adult/child sexual contact is ok, then? The problem with sexual contact between an adult and a child is that one can never be sure that the child wasn't coerced in some way. However, that does not make the inverse true, that every instance of sexual contact between an adult and a child is subject to (implicit) abuse of power. It seems to me that Moeller was making a subtle point that I have also made in discussions about the subject: that it is perfectly possible to imagine a situation where sexual contact between an child and an adult takes place with mutual consent and without coercion. One can imagine a 12 year old seducing a 30 year old neighbor, without either of them being harmed by the experience. In many discussions, this can be a relevant point, that defuse blanket statements. This does not change a thing about the fact that you want the law to forbid such things. And then: "A 16-year-old girl from Oregon, a beautiful, intelligent young woman" ... When one uses such language to talk about kids.. sheesh. These 'kids' are old enough to bear children and have done so during the majority of human history. They have all secondary sexual characteristics that are intended to arouse the males of the species and they are fertile. If you don't find some of them attractive, something is unusual with your hormones.
- tjic 17y ago
  > One can imagine a 12 year old seducing a 30 year old neighbor, without harming either of them. "One" can imagine that? I, for one, CAN NOT imagine that sexual contact between a 12 year old and a 30 year old can ever be anything other than a grave problem.
  - Confusion 17y ago
    There has been plenty of research into the way both men and women that have experienced early sexual contact rate those experiences later in their life, with many case stories. You would be surprised by the amount of positive experiences. They are only a minority and it doesn't change the way the law should be or the fact that we should disapprove of such encounters. However, it does change the 'ultimate evil' view that people tend to have of pedophilia. Like in the case of theft or murder, there are plenty of exceptions, where we can understand why someone would break the law. We may even sympathize with someone that kills an abusive husband or steals from Goldman-Sachs after losing everything. In the same way, we should be capable of sympathizing with some of the people that have committed an act of pedophilia.
cabalamat 17y ago
> And then: "A 16-year-old girl from Oregon, a beautiful, intelligent young woman" ... When one uses such language to talk about kids.. sheesh. Where I come from, people of that age can get married. There are current proposals, which will probably become law, allowing them to vote in elections. As others have pointed out, people of that age are generally fertile. To call someone who can get married, vote and bear children a child is, quite simply, silly.

eavc 17y ago

It occurs to me that we need a more nimble and inexpensive method for removing or forcing the correction of defamatory materials online. This is a common problem already, but as the web evolves to allow for more easily discoverable anonymous comments about average people (and it will), it will become an even more pervasive one.

mortenjorck 17y ago
Here's a startup idea: A centralized forum where people can respond to potentially defamatory content. Log in via OpenID or FB Connect, enter the offending link, and then tell your side of the story. Freemium model lets anyone do this, but you can verify your identity for a small fee. Alas, clearmy.name is currently squatted.
- slapshot 17y ago
  A site like "Clearmy.name" would be useless unless Google brings that site up at the top or unless readers bothered to fact-check every allegation against that site. If you've ever gotten a chain letter by email, you know that people can't even be bothered to check Snopes.com before sending a dubious letter to hundreds of "friends", so I sadly doubt that a lot of people would check Clearmy.name.
gojomo 17y ago
Some jurisdictions have proposed a 'right of reply'. Online, this could mean potentially compelling online writers (such as bloggers) or aggregators (like search engines) to include prominent links to, or the text of, official responses from disputants. See for example: http://yalelawjournal.org/the-yale-law-journal-pocket-part/intellectual-property/don%E2%80%99t-censor-search/ http://yalelawjournal.org/the-yale-law-journal-pocket-part/i... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_reply http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_reply
- eavc 17y ago
  Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind.

nolochemical 17y ago

"It must be true.. I read it on the internet." I can only laugh when people say things like this, much less think it.. the only other option would be to cry. The writers of this pathetic slander are cleary trying too hard.. The whole fiasco strangely reminds me of Stewie's cmments [ http://tinyurl.com/39tljey http://tinyurl.com/39tljey ].. Stewie Griffin: [infuriated] HOW DARE you reduce my finely-hewn thespian style into mere Mother Gooseries?

tjic 17y ago

> the anonymous smear letter ... quoted three sentences out of context: “What is my position on pedophilia, then? It’s really simple. If the child doesn’t want it [sexual contact], is neutral or ambigious [sic], it’s inappropriate.” If the only time that pedophilia is wrong is when the child does not want it, or is neutral about it, this makes it pretty clear that the writer thinks that sexual contact with children is acceptable if the child "wants" it (or claims to want it). It doesn't seem to be much of a stretch at all to conclude that the writer does defend some pedophilia.

driax 17y ago
From what I read in the article, I think what he thinks is that a child would never want sexual contact with an adult. Additional he explicitly says that if he had written something on the subject today he would be more explicit about his views om pedophilia. And he does explicit say that he "by definition" believe that pedophilia is wrong. (the "by definition"-part would probably best be changed to "always"). He can't really change what he wrote back then, and while I agree that there, in the quotes, he and you cited, are the posibility that he thinks some child/adult sex contact is okay, the entire article makes it rather clear that this is not his view.
DrSprout 17y ago
It's clear in context (and you've again taken the quote out of context) that he's referring to edge cases, like where a 16 year old was prosecuted for having sex with a 13 year old, and so on.

gojomo 17y ago

This incident is symptomatic of some of the special problems of online communication: decontextualization: it is easier than ever to remove excerpts from their original context, thus creating a more controversial interpretation, which is then rewarded with attention. differential propagation: salacious distortions travel faster than balanced understanding, because they're more interesting and compact. (They also resurrect spontaneously, the moment a distortion that's not paired with its antidote is rediscovered by a new forwarding-happy audience or new traffic-over-ethics aggregator.) Canonical reference and debunker sites (like Wikipedia and Snopes) help, but still can't outrace outrage-as-entertainment and the bonanza of profitable traffic it brings.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]