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I am always fascinated by the fact that in a remote village in India I am eating with a disposable spoon which I deem cheaper than wasting 10 seconds washing a

by tn13 10y ago

I am always fascinated by the fact that in a remote village in India I am eating with a disposable spoon which I deem cheaper than wasting 10 seconds washing a steel spoon. That disposable spoon comes from a local shop which buys it from a distributor in a factory 100 miles away who buys plastic raw material from a seller 1000 miles way who brings the crude from middle east (10K miles) to make that plastic. Someone has built Oil rig deep into ocean spending billions of dollars to extract that crude oil. More importantly people of all castes religions races are working to achieve this none of whom have any special love for each other yet everyone benefits.

coldtea 10y ago
>More importantly people of all castes religions races are working to achieve this none of whom have any special love for each other yet everyone benefits. Well, "everyone benefits" is the Disney version. Oil producing countries and their citizens are usually royally fucked over, either from foreign powers invading/meddling to take control of the oil supply, or by their friendly lackeys (royal families etc) in power. Ways of living (farmland, hunting spaces etc) are destroyed along the way, for pollution, extraction of resources etc. Workers leave their villages (which are often ravaged from modernization, their previous jobs, commodities, commerce etc drying up) and are forced to seek work in large industrial towns in Dickensian conditions. And all for "disposable spoons", which will merely save "10 seconds washing a steel spoon", end up in huge piles of other plastic garbage in dumps, oceans, etc. Even those "10 seconds washing a steel spoon" saved, and most of the other savings due to such products, will end up being eaten up completely by the modern life and modern pace that makes those products possible in the first place -- the average working person in the US having less free time than comparable professionals (even CEOs) in the 50s or 60s.
- tn13 10y ago
  > Oil producing countries and their citizens are usually royally fucked over Mostly fucked up by politicians. Nothing to do with the fact that people on Oil rigs and me both willing to co-operate. > Ways of living (farmland, hunting spaces etc) are destroyed along the way, for pollution, extraction of resources etc. Don't see the problem with that. > Workers leave their villages They leave for better life. I left my village for better life. Village life sucks. > And all for "disposable spoons", which will merely save "10 seconds washing a steel spoon", end up in huge piles of other plastic garbage in dumps, oceans, etc. Dont know if it worse that wasting water on washing steel spoons but surely technology helps us manage that problem well too. > the average working person in the US having less free time than comparable professionals (even CEOs) in the 50s or 60s. The average working person in USA is having much better life that CEO in 1950s.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Mostly fucked up by politicians. Nothing to do with the fact that people on Oil rigs and me both willing to co-operate. I don't think it's that clear cut, the "bad politicians" vs the "peaceful people". Peoples (citizens of a country) will pursue their interests, even if that means stealing/taking advantage of others as a nation. At least, throughout history, that has been the case, even in very explicit scenarios, e.g. ancient Athens, when the will of the citizens was pretty much directly put into policy, they opted to take advantage of nearby countries to build their power and economy. What politicians/governments in powerful nations do is not just to serve their self interest, it's also in the interests of their country. In less powerful nations, politicians can be "bought" by foreign powers, so that's not always the case, but an "empire" like nation will promote the "strategic interests" of its people (way beyond mere defense). Of course that goes first through the interests of its rich people, but that also trickles to the common folk (e.g. cheap oil). >Don't see the problem with that. Sure, no problem with pollution and exhausting farmland etc... >They leave for better life. I left my village for better life. Village life sucks. Not everybody leaves for a "better live". A lot like their life just fine, thank you, but then its destroyed by external forces (in some cases, they are outright forced too, like in several "urbanization" and "industrialization" pushes, from Industrial Revolution era England to Stalin's USSR and beyond). >The average working person in USA is having much better life that CEO in 1950s. Citation needed. More toys != "much better life".
    - tn13 10y ago
      > Sure, no problem with pollution and exhausting farmland etc... None at all. > Citation needed. More toys != "much better life". Are you kidding ? I would rather be an average working man in USA in 2016 than a rich guy in 1950s. Hands down.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >Are you kidding ? I would rather be an average working man in USA in 2016 than a rich guy in 1950s. Hands down. Then you probably have no clear idea what either entails., except if you think that the differentiators, like access to the web and mobile phones as an "average working man in 2016" are so much better than a cozy and much simpler life in the 50s (there are social differentiators that could turn the tables, of course, e.g. if one is black etc, but you only mentioned "rich guy").
- MichaelMoser123 10y ago
  I love both comments - an example how the global picture of things is subject to interpretation. Everyone sees what he/she wants to see and is at least partially right. ( i think that's the danger of infering too much from small things, isn't it?) I dont have an answer - both of you got an upvote from me.

by tn13 10y ago

coldtea 10y ago

>More importantly people of all castes religions races are working to achieve this none of whom have any special love for each other yet everyone benefits. Well, "everyone benefits" is the Disney version. Oil producing countries and their citizens are usually royally fucked over, either from foreign powers invading/meddling to take control of the oil supply, or by their friendly lackeys (royal families etc) in power. Ways of living (farmland, hunting spaces etc) are destroyed along the way, for pollution, extraction of resources etc. Workers leave their villages (which are often ravaged from modernization, their previous jobs, commodities, commerce etc drying up) and are forced to seek work in large industrial towns in Dickensian conditions. And all for "disposable spoons", which will merely save "10 seconds washing a steel spoon", end up in huge piles of other plastic garbage in dumps, oceans, etc. Even those "10 seconds washing a steel spoon" saved, and most of the other savings due to such products, will end up being eaten up completely by the modern life and modern pace that makes those products possible in the first place -- the average working person in the US having less free time than comparable professionals (even CEOs) in the 50s or 60s.

tn13 10y ago
> Oil producing countries and their citizens are usually royally fucked over Mostly fucked up by politicians. Nothing to do with the fact that people on Oil rigs and me both willing to co-operate. > Ways of living (farmland, hunting spaces etc) are destroyed along the way, for pollution, extraction of resources etc. Don't see the problem with that. > Workers leave their villages They leave for better life. I left my village for better life. Village life sucks. > And all for "disposable spoons", which will merely save "10 seconds washing a steel spoon", end up in huge piles of other plastic garbage in dumps, oceans, etc. Dont know if it worse that wasting water on washing steel spoons but surely technology helps us manage that problem well too. > the average working person in the US having less free time than comparable professionals (even CEOs) in the 50s or 60s. The average working person in USA is having much better life that CEO in 1950s.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Mostly fucked up by politicians. Nothing to do with the fact that people on Oil rigs and me both willing to co-operate. I don't think it's that clear cut, the "bad politicians" vs the "peaceful people". Peoples (citizens of a country) will pursue their interests, even if that means stealing/taking advantage of others as a nation. At least, throughout history, that has been the case, even in very explicit scenarios, e.g. ancient Athens, when the will of the citizens was pretty much directly put into policy, they opted to take advantage of nearby countries to build their power and economy. What politicians/governments in powerful nations do is not just to serve their self interest, it's also in the interests of their country. In less powerful nations, politicians can be "bought" by foreign powers, so that's not always the case, but an "empire" like nation will promote the "strategic interests" of its people (way beyond mere defense). Of course that goes first through the interests of its rich people, but that also trickles to the common folk (e.g. cheap oil). >Don't see the problem with that. Sure, no problem with pollution and exhausting farmland etc... >They leave for better life. I left my village for better life. Village life sucks. Not everybody leaves for a "better live". A lot like their life just fine, thank you, but then its destroyed by external forces (in some cases, they are outright forced too, like in several "urbanization" and "industrialization" pushes, from Industrial Revolution era England to Stalin's USSR and beyond). >The average working person in USA is having much better life that CEO in 1950s. Citation needed. More toys != "much better life".
  - tn13 10y ago
    > Sure, no problem with pollution and exhausting farmland etc... None at all. > Citation needed. More toys != "much better life". Are you kidding ? I would rather be an average working man in USA in 2016 than a rich guy in 1950s. Hands down.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >Are you kidding ? I would rather be an average working man in USA in 2016 than a rich guy in 1950s. Hands down. Then you probably have no clear idea what either entails., except if you think that the differentiators, like access to the web and mobile phones as an "average working man in 2016" are so much better than a cozy and much simpler life in the 50s (there are social differentiators that could turn the tables, of course, e.g. if one is black etc, but you only mentioned "rich guy").
MichaelMoser123 10y ago
I love both comments - an example how the global picture of things is subject to interpretation. Everyone sees what he/she wants to see and is at least partially right. ( i think that's the danger of infering too much from small things, isn't it?) I dont have an answer - both of you got an upvote from me.