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The States That College Graduates Are Most Likely to Leave

99 points by PNWChris 10y ago

1024core 10y ago
Not sure about the methodology here. Say you're born in KY, but move to MA for college. And from there you move back to KY after graduation. The first move doesn't count, since you're not college-educated yet. But the second move counts as moving from MA to KY? Is that why MA is losing college graduates, as per this study? Because MA is chock-full of colleges, thats for sure.
- ianferrel 10y ago
  Yes, there's text below one of the charts that says: "Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college."
- NoodleIncident 10y ago
  "Note: Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college."
  - cableshaft 10y ago
    Florida has the warm weather, no winter allure. Lots of people that I know that used to live in Chicago either moved to California or Florida, because the winters here suck and they want to escape them. I also know a couple that moved to Atlanta, and a few that moved to Arizona. But for all of them, it's because they got sick of winter. Even for me, who's been trying to stay in Chicago as long as possible, it's the second biggest temptation for me leaving, outside of wanting better job prospects.
- Throwaway23412 10y ago
  Right underneath the article's chart: >Note: Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college. Also, I'd imagine that this methodology doesn't affect things too much, considering that around 70% of high school graduates go to colleges in-state.
  - CalChris 10y ago
    So in the KY->MA->KY example that would count against MA and not KY, no?
    - runevault 10y ago
      Correct. They expressly call that out as being a disadvantage for MA when pointing out certain types of locations are doing better on average with a few exceptions.
      - kylecordes 10y ago
        I wish they had fixed it, rather than merely acknowledging it...
        runevault 10y ago
        IMO this version is useful data, but it would be more useful if they also showed other variations. How many states lose kids that go out of state FOR college, what % of people who go out of state for college then come back after? (made up example) Say Maine has a ton of people go out of state to get educated but then bring all that knowledge back home, maybe that says people from Maine are dedicated to their home but don't think the education is good enough there to let them do what they want. Each of those is an interesting data point with different ramifications.
        douche 10y ago
        Nobody comes home to Maine if they leave. At least not for ten or twenty years until they have dug themselves out of the hole. source: Native Mainer, who moved to New Hampshire to get a decent job, who would love to go back home if the whole remote IT job revolution ever actually happens.
        runevault 10y ago
        I sort of thought that might be the case but it was the first thing other than my own home state to come to mind because my Dad is planning a trip up there for next year.
- ghaff 10y ago
  Yeah. It's unclear to me what's being shown here. Sure you can construct selective narratives. Young people are moving to Portland and Seattle even faster than California because they can't afford to live in California any longer and the cool urban west is where it's at! But then you'd have to explain why South Carolina and Georgia have such high net immigration and why the Northeast generally is so negative. I suspect, as you say, that you need to factor in colleges explicitly. The methodology is given but it makes me question what this show in a meaningful way.
  - fma 10y ago
    Georgia is easy to explain. Well, more like Atlanta is easy to explain. No one cares about the rest of Georgia (I lived in middle Georgia for 4 years, wasn't pleasant) Atlanta has cheap housing and good and growing jobs. Warm weather, few hours from the beach, few hours from the mountain. It has a little bit of everything. Tons of companies building new offices. Construction everywhere to accommodate jobs and people. Mercedes headquarter moved here from New Jersey. GM located a huge tech center, etc. Now, on the map it has Florida with a net gain. I'm from Florida, went to college in Florida...left for work. I don't know what college grads are going to Florida for...lots of my classmates left Florida, and some actually came to Atlanta.
- rayiner 10y ago
  The methodology makes the whole study suspect. New York, Massachusetts, Michigan, and Pennsylvania have lots of universities that attract out of state students. They get dinged for out of state students who go to college there and leave the state for work, but get no credit for out of state students who come for college and stay. It's possible that the overall effect of out of state students is small but we have no way of verifying that with the data presented.
  - Steko 10y ago
    > The methodology makes the whole study suspect. No it doesn't, it's a footnote that affects a few states significantly but has little impact on the bigger conclusion about inland states losing out to coastal areas.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      The footnote doesn't provide the information that permits you to conclude it affects only a few states significantly.
      - Steko 10y ago
        Not sure why you would expect it to. The footnote clarifies how they classified people in one case that could have been counted in different ways.
        rayiner 10y ago
        Without that information, you cannot draw conclusions about the size of the effect of how they treat out of state students. And if you can't draw conclusions about the size of the confounding effect, you can't trust anything in the chart.
        Steko 10y ago
        Yes, you have to draw on some common knowledge outside information to know that the size of the effect is not large. Footnotes aren't there to handhold us all the way from set theory axioms to sociological conclusions. There are a host of potential confounding effects that could be large but common sense tells us probably aren't for various reasons. This is one of those.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  shrug, you (the student) lived in Mass and then you left. Regardless of what state you went to after leaving, you are counted as having left Mass. Regardless you are a graduate and the graph still reflects "Where Young College Graduates Tend to Move".
- wjossey 10y ago
  My assumption is that this is all based on how the US census / American community survey conducts its research. It tracks migratory patterns, but does not map individuals effectively. There are a handful of datasets that track migration patterns, which can be used to assess movement in and out of geographic areas to other counties, states, and international territories. The ACS does provide fairly granular geographic analysis, which could be used to look at individual colleges and their migratory patterns. If one were to care about the migration patterns of SUNY schools, for example, one could look to see whether those individuals stay in state, or then leave the state, upon graduation. All in all, the ACS is a great tool for high-level research, but often opens more questions than answers.
kazinator 10y ago
The States that college grads are most likely to leave? Why, after recent political events, them United ones of A.
neom 10y ago
Highly recommend Ed Glaeser's book if you'd like to further understand the socioeconomics and urbanisation aspects of this trend: https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-Healthier/dp/0143120549 https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-Healt...
thekevan 10y ago
I'd love to see the statistics for the state of NY outside of NYC.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- shmerl 10y ago
  I wonder why NY in general has a negative trend.
  - niftich 10y ago
    One theory is that New York's schools are more attractive to people looking to start college than the state's job market, conditions and amenities, and cost-of-living to retain those people after they graduate.
    - wbl 10y ago
      You can also work in New York City and live in two neighboring states, which changes the stats somewhat.
  - dcosson 10y ago
    NY (along with a few other northeast cities) is somewhat unique in that of people who have kids and then move to the suburbs nearby, which I assume is a pretty significant demographic, a lot of them end up in other states like NJ and CT. But this same cohort pretty much anywhere in, say, California or Texas would not leave the state. Plus there are a lot of schools in NY and a lot of people go to them from far away, which doesn't count in this graphic, but then a bunch of those people move back home after school which does count. And there's a question of how they treat people who move around multiple times, some people probably move away for a few years then come back. Overall because of all the confounding factors, this really isn't a very interesting graph. States seem like a pretty arbitrary split when thinking about this, it would make a lot more sense to be looking at cities.
  - thekevan 10y ago
portman 10y ago
Can anyone from New England comment on why Vermont and New Hampshire are so different? Demographics and weather are similar, so surprised to see that Vermont is highly negative and New Hampshire highly positive.
- jameshart 10y ago
  May be NH people go to MA to college then head back to NH before they're 40?
- ghaff 10y ago
  I assume it's related to the fact that New Hampshire has more industry than Vermont (concentrated near the Mass border). But, honestly, as I said in another comment, I'm not sure how much these numbers mean. With respect to to the MA negative numbers, if you've been anywhere near the Boston/Cambridge area recently the idea that there's this mass net exodus of people is pretty silly. Certainly if you've looked at Boston Metro real estate prices or the construction going on in the Seaport or around Kendall Square. EDIT: It may also be related to MA people living in NH for tax reasons.
  - wyldfire 10y ago
    > mass net exodus of people is pretty silly Well not necessarily "mass" (pun intended?) but -2% from 2000 to 2015. Note that everyone who moved from other cities in Massachusetts to Boston (and Boston burbs) are considered neutral by this metric. And there's always bound to be graduates of those Boston universities headed for the other coast. Also note that things are very different in Boston and elsewhere in 2016 from how they were in 2000.
- altoz 10y ago
  I'm going to guess the lack of a state income tax.
- msabalau 10y ago
  Southern New Hampshire is within commuting distance of Boston, and has reasonable variety of the type of jobs you'd expect to see about a hour or two away from a major metropolitan area--also there are still some farmland being converted to residences which makes housing relatively affordable compared to Greater Boston. These forces fall off once you move beyond the southern NH cities--Northern New Hampshire is a lot like Vermont, but with less tourism.
hamandcheese 10y ago
> A study comparing thousands of American and British census records between 1850 and 1880 showed that nearly two-thirds of American men moved across county lines, while only a quarter of British men did. Doesn't really seem like a meaningful comparison. The US is comparatively massive, with individual geographic and economic regions easily being larger than the whole of Britain. Not to mention parts of the US were literally still being settled during that time. The frontier didn't close until 1890.
- astrodust 10y ago
  In a sense US is still being settled. Populations are shifting and adjusting. The United Kingdom has had two hundred years to adapt to the effects of industrialization. The United States got in on that much later, with the majority of it happening post-WWI, and at that point the modern layout of the country had only barely been realized. As you point out the frontier was still very much a thing in the years immediately prior to that. There's still a lot of shifting within the US that you simply don't see in other countries. People are highly mobile, and cities like Austin and Atlanta have changed dramatically in character because of large-scale migration. The only country actively changing more than the US is probably China.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    The UK has had only about 30 years to adapt to de-industrialisation, or at least the end of mass industrial employment. There are definitely places hollowed out by it.
    - cableshaft 10y ago
      The US has those same places that have been hollowed out by de-industrialization. Take Detroit, for example. But there are plenty of other examples.
vmarsy 10y ago
"if states are losing more college graduates than they are holding or bringing in, they’re effectively subsidizing other states’ skilled labor forces." Defining those subsidies could be helpful, if this refers to the in-state tuition rates, then it would be interesting to see what proportion of students are in-state. Out of all the in-state students, how many actually move out of the state afterwards? I'm pretty confident that in-state students are more likely to stay in the state than other students. On the other hand, it would be very unlikely for let's say a student who grew up in Georgia and studied at University of Michigan to stay in Michigan after graduation. This is also unfair in the methodology: "Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college." They were out-of-state students, so didn't get subsidized. If there's other subsidies (than the in-state deductions) which apply to the entire student body, then the argument below is as valid: "if the US universities are losing more college graduates than they are holding or bringing in, they’re effectively subsidizing other countries’ skilled labor forces." However, in that case there IS some "quick, easy solution."
- ourmandave 10y ago
  There's the Midwest Student Exchange Program between 7 states and other tuition reciprocity agreements that probably skew the data too. http://msep.mhec.org/ http://msep.mhec.org/
- jacalata 10y ago
  I assume the quick easy solution to educating foreigners and then seeing them move home would be to award an unencumbered work visa on graduation?
  - pandler 10y ago
    Anecdata: That would have solved their problem entirely for some of my friends. I can easily think of a good handful of good engineers I know from college that were disappointed to have to return to their home country when they could not find work sponsors. That's not to say that there aren't also the ones who's plan from the beginning was to return home, but for others the US had become their home. The common story that I heart was that employers were balking at the amount of risk and paperwork required to hire foreign employees.
hellofunk 10y ago
In my anecdotal, non-scientific experience, a lot of students who go to a university out of state may indeed leave that state upon graduation, but not often to return to their home state, often other states instead. So I don't see a big disadvantage to the methodology.
misja111 10y ago
Does anybody have an idea why so many graduates are moving to Colorado?
- davycro 10y ago
  Strange. It's an outlier on the map, and contradicts the author's main point. Yet there's no mention of Colorado in the article.
- qntty 10y ago
  In my experience (of people from the east coast), a lot of people want to move to Boulder/Denver because they're "young" cities (and pot is legal).
- int_19h 10y ago
  Because it has been doing pretty well lately, economically speaking. People go where jobs are, and Denver is one of those places these days. As to why that is... this is still a matter of debate, but here's one take. http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/novdec-2015/why-denver-nashville-and-boston-are-booming/ http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/novdec-2015/why-denver...

99 points by PNWChris 10y ago

Not sure about the methodology here. Say you're born in KY, but move to MA for college. And from there you move back to KY after graduation. The first move doesn't count, since you're not college-educated yet. But the second move counts as moving from MA to KY? Is that why MA is losing college graduates, as per this study? Because MA is chock-full of colleges, thats for sure.

ianferrel 10y ago
Yes, there's text below one of the charts that says: "Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college."
NoodleIncident 10y ago
"Note: Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college."
- cableshaft 10y ago
  Florida has the warm weather, no winter allure. Lots of people that I know that used to live in Chicago either moved to California or Florida, because the winters here suck and they want to escape them. I also know a couple that moved to Atlanta, and a few that moved to Arizona. But for all of them, it's because they got sick of winter. Even for me, who's been trying to stay in Chicago as long as possible, it's the second biggest temptation for me leaving, outside of wanting better job prospects.
Throwaway23412 10y ago
Right underneath the article's chart: >Note: Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college. Also, I'd imagine that this methodology doesn't affect things too much, considering that around 70% of high school graduates go to colleges in-state.
- CalChris 10y ago
  So in the KY->MA->KY example that would count against MA and not KY, no?
  - runevault 10y ago
    Correct. They expressly call that out as being a disadvantage for MA when pointing out certain types of locations are doing better on average with a few exceptions.
    - kylecordes 10y ago
      I wish they had fixed it, rather than merely acknowledging it...
      - runevault 10y ago
        IMO this version is useful data, but it would be more useful if they also showed other variations. How many states lose kids that go out of state FOR college, what % of people who go out of state for college then come back after? (made up example) Say Maine has a ton of people go out of state to get educated but then bring all that knowledge back home, maybe that says people from Maine are dedicated to their home but don't think the education is good enough there to let them do what they want. Each of those is an interesting data point with different ramifications.
        douche 10y ago
        Nobody comes home to Maine if they leave. At least not for ten or twenty years until they have dug themselves out of the hole. source: Native Mainer, who moved to New Hampshire to get a decent job, who would love to go back home if the whole remote IT job revolution ever actually happens.
        runevault 10y ago
        I sort of thought that might be the case but it was the first thing other than my own home state to come to mind because my Dad is planning a trip up there for next year.
ghaff 10y ago
Yeah. It's unclear to me what's being shown here. Sure you can construct selective narratives. Young people are moving to Portland and Seattle even faster than California because they can't afford to live in California any longer and the cool urban west is where it's at! But then you'd have to explain why South Carolina and Georgia have such high net immigration and why the Northeast generally is so negative. I suspect, as you say, that you need to factor in colleges explicitly. The methodology is given but it makes me question what this show in a meaningful way.
- fma 10y ago
  Georgia is easy to explain. Well, more like Atlanta is easy to explain. No one cares about the rest of Georgia (I lived in middle Georgia for 4 years, wasn't pleasant) Atlanta has cheap housing and good and growing jobs. Warm weather, few hours from the beach, few hours from the mountain. It has a little bit of everything. Tons of companies building new offices. Construction everywhere to accommodate jobs and people. Mercedes headquarter moved here from New Jersey. GM located a huge tech center, etc. Now, on the map it has Florida with a net gain. I'm from Florida, went to college in Florida...left for work. I don't know what college grads are going to Florida for...lots of my classmates left Florida, and some actually came to Atlanta.
rayiner 10y ago
The methodology makes the whole study suspect. New York, Massachusetts, Michigan, and Pennsylvania have lots of universities that attract out of state students. They get dinged for out of state students who go to college there and leave the state for work, but get no credit for out of state students who come for college and stay. It's possible that the overall effect of out of state students is small but we have no way of verifying that with the data presented.
- Steko 10y ago
  > The methodology makes the whole study suspect. No it doesn't, it's a footnote that affects a few states significantly but has little impact on the bigger conclusion about inland states losing out to coastal areas.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    The footnote doesn't provide the information that permits you to conclude it affects only a few states significantly.
    - Steko 10y ago
      Not sure why you would expect it to. The footnote clarifies how they classified people in one case that could have been counted in different ways.
      - rayiner 10y ago
        Without that information, you cannot draw conclusions about the size of the effect of how they treat out of state students. And if you can't draw conclusions about the size of the confounding effect, you can't trust anything in the chart.
        Steko 10y ago
        Yes, you have to draw on some common knowledge outside information to know that the size of the effect is not large. Footnotes aren't there to handhold us all the way from set theory axioms to sociological conclusions. There are a host of potential confounding effects that could be large but common sense tells us probably aren't for various reasons. This is one of those.
wyldfire 10y ago
shrug, you (the student) lived in Mass and then you left. Regardless of what state you went to after leaving, you are counted as having left Mass. Regardless you are a graduate and the graph still reflects "Where Young College Graduates Tend to Move".
wjossey 10y ago
My assumption is that this is all based on how the US census / American community survey conducts its research. It tracks migratory patterns, but does not map individuals effectively. There are a handful of datasets that track migration patterns, which can be used to assess movement in and out of geographic areas to other counties, states, and international territories. The ACS does provide fairly granular geographic analysis, which could be used to look at individual colleges and their migratory patterns. If one were to care about the migration patterns of SUNY schools, for example, one could look to see whether those individuals stay in state, or then leave the state, upon graduation. All in all, the ACS is a great tool for high-level research, but often opens more questions than answers.

kazinator 10y ago

The States that college grads are most likely to leave? Why, after recent political events, them United ones of A.

neom 10y ago

Highly recommend Ed Glaeser's book if you'd like to further understand the socioeconomics and urbanisation aspects of this trend: https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-Healthier/dp/0143120549 https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-City-Greatest-Invention-Healt...

thekevan 10y ago

I'd love to see the statistics for the state of NY outside of NYC.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
shmerl 10y ago
I wonder why NY in general has a negative trend.
- niftich 10y ago
  One theory is that New York's schools are more attractive to people looking to start college than the state's job market, conditions and amenities, and cost-of-living to retain those people after they graduate.
  - wbl 10y ago
    You can also work in New York City and live in two neighboring states, which changes the stats somewhat.
- dcosson 10y ago
  NY (along with a few other northeast cities) is somewhat unique in that of people who have kids and then move to the suburbs nearby, which I assume is a pretty significant demographic, a lot of them end up in other states like NJ and CT. But this same cohort pretty much anywhere in, say, California or Texas would not leave the state. Plus there are a lot of schools in NY and a lot of people go to them from far away, which doesn't count in this graphic, but then a bunch of those people move back home after school which does count. And there's a question of how they treat people who move around multiple times, some people probably move away for a few years then come back. Overall because of all the confounding factors, this really isn't a very interesting graph. States seem like a pretty arbitrary split when thinking about this, it would make a lot more sense to be looking at cities.
- thekevan 10y ago

portman 10y ago

Can anyone from New England comment on why Vermont and New Hampshire are so different? Demographics and weather are similar, so surprised to see that Vermont is highly negative and New Hampshire highly positive.

jameshart 10y ago
May be NH people go to MA to college then head back to NH before they're 40?
ghaff 10y ago
I assume it's related to the fact that New Hampshire has more industry than Vermont (concentrated near the Mass border). But, honestly, as I said in another comment, I'm not sure how much these numbers mean. With respect to to the MA negative numbers, if you've been anywhere near the Boston/Cambridge area recently the idea that there's this mass net exodus of people is pretty silly. Certainly if you've looked at Boston Metro real estate prices or the construction going on in the Seaport or around Kendall Square. EDIT: It may also be related to MA people living in NH for tax reasons.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  > mass net exodus of people is pretty silly Well not necessarily "mass" (pun intended?) but -2% from 2000 to 2015. Note that everyone who moved from other cities in Massachusetts to Boston (and Boston burbs) are considered neutral by this metric. And there's always bound to be graduates of those Boston universities headed for the other coast. Also note that things are very different in Boston and elsewhere in 2016 from how they were in 2000.
altoz 10y ago
I'm going to guess the lack of a state income tax.
msabalau 10y ago
Southern New Hampshire is within commuting distance of Boston, and has reasonable variety of the type of jobs you'd expect to see about a hour or two away from a major metropolitan area--also there are still some farmland being converted to residences which makes housing relatively affordable compared to Greater Boston. These forces fall off once you move beyond the southern NH cities--Northern New Hampshire is a lot like Vermont, but with less tourism.

hamandcheese 10y ago

> A study comparing thousands of American and British census records between 1850 and 1880 showed that nearly two-thirds of American men moved across county lines, while only a quarter of British men did. Doesn't really seem like a meaningful comparison. The US is comparatively massive, with individual geographic and economic regions easily being larger than the whole of Britain. Not to mention parts of the US were literally still being settled during that time. The frontier didn't close until 1890.

astrodust 10y ago
In a sense US is still being settled. Populations are shifting and adjusting. The United Kingdom has had two hundred years to adapt to the effects of industrialization. The United States got in on that much later, with the majority of it happening post-WWI, and at that point the modern layout of the country had only barely been realized. As you point out the frontier was still very much a thing in the years immediately prior to that. There's still a lot of shifting within the US that you simply don't see in other countries. People are highly mobile, and cities like Austin and Atlanta have changed dramatically in character because of large-scale migration. The only country actively changing more than the US is probably China.
- pjc50 10y ago
  The UK has had only about 30 years to adapt to de-industrialisation, or at least the end of mass industrial employment. There are definitely places hollowed out by it.
  - cableshaft 10y ago
    The US has those same places that have been hollowed out by de-industrialization. Take Detroit, for example. But there are plenty of other examples.

vmarsy 10y ago

"if states are losing more college graduates than they are holding or bringing in, they’re effectively subsidizing other states’ skilled labor forces." Defining those subsidies could be helpful, if this refers to the in-state tuition rates, then it would be interesting to see what proportion of students are in-state. Out of all the in-state students, how many actually move out of the state afterwards? I'm pretty confident that in-state students are more likely to stay in the state than other students. On the other hand, it would be very unlikely for let's say a student who grew up in Georgia and studied at University of Michigan to stay in Michigan after graduation. This is also unfair in the methodology: "Those who grew up in one state, went to college in another, and then moved again are counted as migrating from the state where they attended college." They were out-of-state students, so didn't get subsidized. If there's other subsidies (than the in-state deductions) which apply to the entire student body, then the argument below is as valid: "if the US universities are losing more college graduates than they are holding or bringing in, they’re effectively subsidizing other countries’ skilled labor forces." However, in that case there IS some "quick, easy solution."

ourmandave 10y ago
There's the Midwest Student Exchange Program between 7 states and other tuition reciprocity agreements that probably skew the data too. http://msep.mhec.org/ http://msep.mhec.org/
jacalata 10y ago
I assume the quick easy solution to educating foreigners and then seeing them move home would be to award an unencumbered work visa on graduation?
- pandler 10y ago
  Anecdata: That would have solved their problem entirely for some of my friends. I can easily think of a good handful of good engineers I know from college that were disappointed to have to return to their home country when they could not find work sponsors. That's not to say that there aren't also the ones who's plan from the beginning was to return home, but for others the US had become their home. The common story that I heart was that employers were balking at the amount of risk and paperwork required to hire foreign employees.

hellofunk 10y ago

In my anecdotal, non-scientific experience, a lot of students who go to a university out of state may indeed leave that state upon graduation, but not often to return to their home state, often other states instead. So I don't see a big disadvantage to the methodology.

misja111 10y ago

Does anybody have an idea why so many graduates are moving to Colorado?

davycro 10y ago
Strange. It's an outlier on the map, and contradicts the author's main point. Yet there's no mention of Colorado in the article.
qntty 10y ago
In my experience (of people from the east coast), a lot of people want to move to Boulder/Denver because they're "young" cities (and pot is legal).
int_19h 10y ago
Because it has been doing pretty well lately, economically speaking. People go where jobs are, and Denver is one of those places these days. As to why that is... this is still a matter of debate, but here's one take. http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/novdec-2015/why-denver-nashville-and-boston-are-booming/ http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/novdec-2015/why-denver...