5 ms·

This is good advice but on a practical level isn't clearly compatible with other advice like "fix the plane while it's flying". Also I was under the impression

by qwrusz 10y ago

This is good advice but on a practical level isn't clearly compatible with other advice like "fix the plane while it's flying". Also I was under the impression YCombinator focuses on helping companies grow and organizes a demo day 3 months later to help them raise money from VCs. The pg article even mentions growth targets during YC. If this is true then companies accepted to YC should already have a product people love and be ready to hack growth over the next 3 months. This clearly is not the case (eg Airbnb joined YC after about a year not 1000 days). If YC is not only about growth but also about helping companies at much earlier stage still working on the product people love stage, that would seem to be a challenge. What do YC speakers talk about? Growth or Product? It's like putting kids learning Algebra in the same class as those ready for Calculus, not easy at all. Maybe there should be two types of YC sessions then? One for early startups still working on product, another YC for startups working on growth... Every founder I have ever met wants their product to be loved, but unfortunately they need time and money to figure this out. Other issues: it's hard to know when to walk away pre-product and pitching VCs without growth doesn't seem to work. So founders raise money by showing early "growth" without PML (product/market love), then they go back to work on the product and when PML doesn't materialize in the first couple months they start to get nervous and switch resources back to growth hacking their mediocre product so they can be ready to raise money again and have another chance. Obviously this is all very complicated, full of exceptions to rules. In reality product and growth have to be going on at once - but the timelines and resources and challenges to do product and growth at the same time should be part of the advice.

rsp1984 10y ago
I'm not affiliated with YC in any sense but trying to clarify some things: "fix the plane while it's flying". This is typically advice for startups that have found product-market-fit (i.e. have a product people love) but there are a million other things broken. In that case the advice is often to fix these things "while flying", i.e. while simultaneously growing sales and the company in general. "organizes a demo day 3 months later to help them raise money from VCs" I understand the purpose is primarily to help companies raise seed/angel rounds, not big "institutional" rounds. And just generally make connections for later. "The pg article even mentions growth targets during YC." Clearly this is not applicable to all companies. E.g. what's the "growth target" for a company like Rigetti who build a quantum computer? "One for early startups still working on product, another YC for startups working on growth" One of the primary (if not the most important) benefits of YC is the network. You get that regardless of whether you're in product or growth stage. "pitching VCs without growth doesn't seem to work" Depends on what you're pitching for. Seed and Series-A are two entirely different games. "So founders raise money by showing early "growth" without PML (product/market love), then they go back to work..." Good investors aren't fooled by that and will ask the right questions to quickly uncover any fake metrics. Besides that a seed round is typically raised on team, talent, idea and early traction, not growth.
- qwrusz 10y ago
  What's the difference between "early traction" and "early 'growth'"?
- duncanawoods 10y ago
  >> Seed and Series-A are two entirely different games. Are you actually in a position to offer advice? What you say seems outdated - seeds grew to multi-million figures such that "seed is the new series A" was a thing back in 2013 - firms now offer "pre-seed" funding and "second-seeds" seem increasingly common. The assumption today seems to be that if you have no connections, you must self-fund / bootstrap / FFF your way to traction to even attract angel interest and for you, seed is for growth. However, if you have prior exits and connections then you play a different game and can probably raise a MM seed without even an idea of what your new business might be.
  - rsp1984 10y ago
    Are you actually in a position to offer advice? Are you in a position to question that I am? I've raised a seed round for my company 3 years ago and we are now going for Series A. I feel experienced enough to share some of my thoughts. Feel free to ignore it if you disagree.
    - duncanawoods 10y ago
      Sorry I said that aggressively. I'm tired of low signal startup advice that does not address real-world complexity and it got the better of me. What would have been fascinating, practical and not have raised my doubts would be if you compared the metrics and institutions you used to raise your seed compared to what you are using for your Series A. Anyway, best of luck. Three years seems like a long time to live on a seed.
      - rsp1984 10y ago
        Thanks. We hustled to "Ramen profitability" so we don't actually need the money. We'd still very much like it though to speed some things up and to buy ourselves some ice cream to the Ramen every once in a while ;-)
mck- 10y ago
There is indeed a different YC program for early-stage startups working on product. It's called the YC Fellowship. https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-fellowship/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-fellowship/
- jayjay71 10y ago
  The YC Fellowship got axed. From what I understand, they're replacing it with an online course (similar to their startup videos/lectures) and it does not include any funding.
  - mck- 10y ago
    Oh that's sad - do you have link to an announcement? I wonder why..
    - tim333 10y ago
      It was announced here https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-changes/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-changes/ and confirmed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490241

by qwrusz 10y ago

rsp1984 10y ago

I'm not affiliated with YC in any sense but trying to clarify some things: "fix the plane while it's flying". This is typically advice for startups that have found product-market-fit (i.e. have a product people love) but there are a million other things broken. In that case the advice is often to fix these things "while flying", i.e. while simultaneously growing sales and the company in general. "organizes a demo day 3 months later to help them raise money from VCs" I understand the purpose is primarily to help companies raise seed/angel rounds, not big "institutional" rounds. And just generally make connections for later. "The pg article even mentions growth targets during YC." Clearly this is not applicable to all companies. E.g. what's the "growth target" for a company like Rigetti who build a quantum computer? "One for early startups still working on product, another YC for startups working on growth" One of the primary (if not the most important) benefits of YC is the network. You get that regardless of whether you're in product or growth stage. "pitching VCs without growth doesn't seem to work" Depends on what you're pitching for. Seed and Series-A are two entirely different games. "So founders raise money by showing early "growth" without PML (product/market love), then they go back to work..." Good investors aren't fooled by that and will ask the right questions to quickly uncover any fake metrics. Besides that a seed round is typically raised on team, talent, idea and early traction, not growth.

qwrusz 10y ago
What's the difference between "early traction" and "early 'growth'"?
duncanawoods 10y ago
>> Seed and Series-A are two entirely different games. Are you actually in a position to offer advice? What you say seems outdated - seeds grew to multi-million figures such that "seed is the new series A" was a thing back in 2013 - firms now offer "pre-seed" funding and "second-seeds" seem increasingly common. The assumption today seems to be that if you have no connections, you must self-fund / bootstrap / FFF your way to traction to even attract angel interest and for you, seed is for growth. However, if you have prior exits and connections then you play a different game and can probably raise a MM seed without even an idea of what your new business might be.
- rsp1984 10y ago
  Are you actually in a position to offer advice? Are you in a position to question that I am? I've raised a seed round for my company 3 years ago and we are now going for Series A. I feel experienced enough to share some of my thoughts. Feel free to ignore it if you disagree.
  - duncanawoods 10y ago
    Sorry I said that aggressively. I'm tired of low signal startup advice that does not address real-world complexity and it got the better of me. What would have been fascinating, practical and not have raised my doubts would be if you compared the metrics and institutions you used to raise your seed compared to what you are using for your Series A. Anyway, best of luck. Three years seems like a long time to live on a seed.
    - rsp1984 10y ago
      Thanks. We hustled to "Ramen profitability" so we don't actually need the money. We'd still very much like it though to speed some things up and to buy ourselves some ice cream to the Ramen every once in a while ;-)

mck- 10y ago

There is indeed a different YC program for early-stage startups working on product. It's called the YC Fellowship. https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-fellowship/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-fellowship/

jayjay71 10y ago
The YC Fellowship got axed. From what I understand, they're replacing it with an online course (similar to their startup videos/lectures) and it does not include any funding.
- mck- 10y ago
  Oh that's sad - do you have link to an announcement? I wonder why..
  - tim333 10y ago
    It was announced here https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-changes/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-changes/ and confirmed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12490241