6 ms·

Whenever I see an article like this, I lose another bit of faith in all of the products in these supermarkets, fair or not. I get the sense that all of our mode

by adt2bt 10y ago

Whenever I see an article like this, I lose another bit of faith in all of the products in these supermarkets, fair or not. I get the sense that all of our modern 'health products' are nothing more than shams that induce the placebo effect in people. Unless a doctor prescribes it, [edit] or it's an OTC drug [/edit], I tend to think it's bologna. Does anyone else feel that way or am I being unreasonable?

relaytheurgency 10y ago
About cosmetics/supplements? Sure. I think there's basically a 0% chance that I'm not buying Ibuprofen when I try to, though.
- adt2bt 10y ago
  Good point, I should have been more clear. I do trust OTC drugs to be labelled correctly.
  - justinclift 10y ago
    There have been occasions where manufacturers of generics turned out be making hmm... crap (best wording I can think of) instead of the medications in question. :(
    - amitdeshwar 10y ago
      Do you have evidence that defective drugs made it to customers?
      - PhantomGremlin 10y ago
        Do you have evidence that defective drugs made it to customers? I've ranted about this before on HN. The global pharmaceutical supply chain in a Cluster Fuck race to the bottom. Here are a few articles that Bloomberg wrote a few years ago: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-06/flies-found-by-fda-threaten-indian-town-built-on-generics http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-06/flies-foun... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-03/indian-labs-deleted-drug-test-results-documents-show http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-03/indian-lab... IMO you're being deliberately naïve if you don't think that those sorts of manufacturing practices don't result in "defective drugs" reaching consumers. Edit: here's a link to a Pfizer website. They make the claim that "VIAGRA is one of the most counterfeited drugs in the world." Do you expect us to believe that none of that counterfeit drug ever gets to consumers? https://www.viagra.com/getting/avoid-counterfeits https://www.viagra.com/getting/avoid-counterfeits
        amitdeshwar 10y ago
        Counterfeit != defective I agree though that those bloomberg stories indicate that defective drugs are in fact reaching consumers :(
        PhantomGremlin 10y ago
        Look at what Pfizer claims they found in counterfeit Viagra: Blue printer ink Amphetamines, also known as “speed” Metronidazole, a powerful antibiotic that could cause an allergic reaction, diarrhea, or vomiting Too much active ingredient (or not enough), which may cause you harm Binding agents, such as drywall, that prevent the tablet from breaking down in your system And look what Pfizer claims they found in other counterfeit medications: Toxic ingredients, such as boric acid, floor wax, brick dust, rat poison, and road paint Ingredients that can have dangerous interactions with other medications you may be taking A completely different medication with potentially harmful side effects Yes I know that Pfizer is hardly a disinterested party. But I still get the impression that there's a lot of defective product out there. Not just counterfeit, but indisputably defective!
      - justinclift 10y ago
        There are a few instances of generics manufacturers being shut down expressly due to this. eg the fake drugs were being sold to consumers It's very easy to find specific instances via standard Googling/DuckDuckGo/etc. Note - that's not me being hand wavy, I'm actually saying "Google it" because in-depth results DO show up.
serg_chernata 10y ago
I agree, yet I don't like the doctor perspective either. So much of what they prescribe is fueled by economics. In addition, the fact that most doctors aren't deeply trained in nutrition completely destroys my faith in that aspect entirely.
- wang_li 10y ago
  Drs. Cifu and Prasad have done research on what they call medical reversal (when a particular therapy is found to be worse than the previous therapy or does nothing at all) and have concluded that the rate of reversal is 35-40%. So your doctor isn't doing fantastically in actual medical therapies either. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/02/adam_cifu_on_en.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/02/adam_cifu_on_en.htm...
colechristensen 10y ago
If it isn't in the "Drug Facts" or "Nutrition Facts" label, it's probably bogus. Also if it includes "These statements have not been evaulated by the Food and Drug Administration" it's probably bogus. Your own research and reason can override these rules of thumb, but only if you really trust yourself to read and interpret scientific literature which isn't something most people can truly do.
- marrone12 10y ago
  Well the problem specifically in this case, is that the ingredients stated they included aloe vera while they chemical analysis says that they don't. So you can't even trust the "Drug Facts"
  - colechristensen 10y ago
    It isn't clear that any of those products have an actual Drug Facts label.(an example label [1]) The CVS product listed in the article definitely does not[2]. If it doesn't have a label like this, it is likely not regulated by the FDA and therefor quite a bit more likely to be nonsense. Having ingredient lists not on the Drug Facts label doesn't count. 1. http://flexapro.com/images/flexapro_drug_facts.jpg http://flexapro.com/images/flexapro_drug_facts.jpg 2. http://www.cvs.com/bizcontent/merchandising/productimages/large/5042807181_2.jpg http://www.cvs.com/bizcontent/merchandising/productimages/la...
captainmuon 10y ago
Not just health products. Some time ago I saw one of those consumer advocate TV shows where they were testing chicken salad. They found that many products had laughably little chicken inside, and that the manufacturers were lying on the labels. That was when I realized that the people who prepare our food have an incentive to decieve us. It's a tug of war between consumers' and producers' interests. They want to make it as cheap as possible with as little real ingredients as possible. It reminded me of something I read by Karl Marx (!) - how in his time the bakers in London would adulterate their bread with all kinds of nasty things.
sedachv 10y ago
> Does anyone else feel that way or am I being unreasonable? Not at all. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that the current situation with lack of dietary/cosmetics product regulation in the United States is the result of a Mormon conspiracy: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/opinion/the-politics-of-fraudulent-dietary-supplements.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/opinion/the-politics-of-fr...
- philipkglass 10y ago
  I have enough libertarian sympathies that I'd be ok with people selling dietary supplements for human consumption, no clinical trials necessary, as long as it's all correctly labeled. Like, I really doubt that taking dried garlic capsules is going to affect your LDL cholesterol, but I'm fine with people trying that as long as all the sellers clearly and correctly label the product. But if some company is filling those capsules with dried onion instead of garlic, and trying to excuse it with "the real thing doesn't behave any differently," then I want the regulator-hammer to drop on them. The same goes for fraudulently labeled seafood, pet treats, honey, etc. These frauds should be policed better. It boggles the mind that some libertarians want the individual to make smart choices for themselves instead of the government pre-empting those choices (which I support in many cases - drug consumption and other risky behaviors) but also want to let fraud run rampant by gutting inspections and labeling requirements.
- generj 10y ago
  Is there a reason you used the term "Mormon conspiracy"? It detracts from the rest of your point. You hopefully wouldn't call Bernie Madoff's scheme a "Jewish conspiracy" just because the principal in that scheme was Jewish. If you had called something a Jewish conspiracy people would most likely have reacted very negatively - mostly out of the prosecution Jews have and do undergo, but also because it was very immaterial to his actions and seems bigoted prima facie. Unless you are describing a literal conspiracy by a religion it generally sounds terrible to describe an event by members of that religion by the title of the religion. Hatch is a morally bankrupt person, obviously. But that's on him.
stillsut 10y ago
Supermarket aloe vera is a product that changed my life. Seriously. With my cheap Irish skin, I'm sure to get a severe sunburn once a year. I've had one so bad it started to bleed; that one almost stopped me from going to highschool prom. I had tried Noxzema moisturizing gel, cold shower, hot tub, and several other anecdotal remedies for sunburns, but nothing worked - for about five days following a sunburn I was basically handicapped. A year or two after the big one I tried the [fake] aloe vera and it finally seemed like something worked. Ever since then, I'll use roughly a bottle a day of the stuff following an intense burn. This has reduced the discomfort to the level that the average Joe expresses as in "Ahh, extra sensitive right now" not "Can't put on clothes right now"
- hwang89 10y ago
  Sunblock?
  - stillsut 10y ago
    Sure! That's why I don't get brunt everyday I'm outside between April and September. There's some tricky failure modes to sunscreen though, and inevitably you'll find one of those failures if you expose yourself to dozen of chances for it to happen.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      The absolute best sunblock is physical long sleeves, wide brim hat, tree covering.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Did it have any actual Aloe Vera in it?
  - jmcdiesel 10y ago
    Does it matter if it works? (i mean, legally, of course... and morally... ) ... but as a solution, if it works, it works, right?
jcranmer 10y ago
Anything that's marketed as a health or dietary supplement (basically, anything that falls under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_Education_Act_of_1994 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_... ) is unregulated by the FDA--no efficacy studies, not even safety studies are required for marketing. They are required to list active ingredients, but unlike drug manufacturers, there is no regular inspection to make sure that they're actually producing the things they say they're making. And judging from the several reports I've seen, the manufacturers are so lazy that they can't be bothered to actually acquire the active ingredient. Whatever you think about Big Pharma, they are saints compared to the supplement industry.

by adt2bt 10y ago

relaytheurgency 10y ago

About cosmetics/supplements? Sure. I think there's basically a 0% chance that I'm not buying Ibuprofen when I try to, though.

adt2bt 10y ago
Good point, I should have been more clear. I do trust OTC drugs to be labelled correctly.
- justinclift 10y ago
  There have been occasions where manufacturers of generics turned out be making hmm... crap (best wording I can think of) instead of the medications in question. :(
  - amitdeshwar 10y ago
    Do you have evidence that defective drugs made it to customers?
    - PhantomGremlin 10y ago
      Do you have evidence that defective drugs made it to customers? I've ranted about this before on HN. The global pharmaceutical supply chain in a Cluster Fuck race to the bottom. Here are a few articles that Bloomberg wrote a few years ago: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-06/flies-found-by-fda-threaten-indian-town-built-on-generics http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-06/flies-foun... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-03/indian-labs-deleted-drug-test-results-documents-show http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-03/indian-lab... IMO you're being deliberately naïve if you don't think that those sorts of manufacturing practices don't result in "defective drugs" reaching consumers. Edit: here's a link to a Pfizer website. They make the claim that "VIAGRA is one of the most counterfeited drugs in the world." Do you expect us to believe that none of that counterfeit drug ever gets to consumers? https://www.viagra.com/getting/avoid-counterfeits https://www.viagra.com/getting/avoid-counterfeits
      - amitdeshwar 10y ago
        Counterfeit != defective I agree though that those bloomberg stories indicate that defective drugs are in fact reaching consumers :(
        PhantomGremlin 10y ago
        Look at what Pfizer claims they found in counterfeit Viagra: Blue printer ink Amphetamines, also known as “speed” Metronidazole, a powerful antibiotic that could cause an allergic reaction, diarrhea, or vomiting Too much active ingredient (or not enough), which may cause you harm Binding agents, such as drywall, that prevent the tablet from breaking down in your system And look what Pfizer claims they found in other counterfeit medications: Toxic ingredients, such as boric acid, floor wax, brick dust, rat poison, and road paint Ingredients that can have dangerous interactions with other medications you may be taking A completely different medication with potentially harmful side effects Yes I know that Pfizer is hardly a disinterested party. But I still get the impression that there's a lot of defective product out there. Not just counterfeit, but indisputably defective!
    - justinclift 10y ago
      There are a few instances of generics manufacturers being shut down expressly due to this. eg the fake drugs were being sold to consumers It's very easy to find specific instances via standard Googling/DuckDuckGo/etc. Note - that's not me being hand wavy, I'm actually saying "Google it" because in-depth results DO show up.

serg_chernata 10y ago

I agree, yet I don't like the doctor perspective either. So much of what they prescribe is fueled by economics. In addition, the fact that most doctors aren't deeply trained in nutrition completely destroys my faith in that aspect entirely.

wang_li 10y ago
Drs. Cifu and Prasad have done research on what they call medical reversal (when a particular therapy is found to be worse than the previous therapy or does nothing at all) and have concluded that the rate of reversal is 35-40%. So your doctor isn't doing fantastically in actual medical therapies either. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/02/adam_cifu_on_en.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/02/adam_cifu_on_en.htm...

colechristensen 10y ago

If it isn't in the "Drug Facts" or "Nutrition Facts" label, it's probably bogus. Also if it includes "These statements have not been evaulated by the Food and Drug Administration" it's probably bogus. Your own research and reason can override these rules of thumb, but only if you really trust yourself to read and interpret scientific literature which isn't something most people can truly do.

marrone12 10y ago
Well the problem specifically in this case, is that the ingredients stated they included aloe vera while they chemical analysis says that they don't. So you can't even trust the "Drug Facts"
- colechristensen 10y ago
  It isn't clear that any of those products have an actual Drug Facts label.(an example label [1]) The CVS product listed in the article definitely does not[2]. If it doesn't have a label like this, it is likely not regulated by the FDA and therefor quite a bit more likely to be nonsense. Having ingredient lists not on the Drug Facts label doesn't count. 1. http://flexapro.com/images/flexapro_drug_facts.jpg http://flexapro.com/images/flexapro_drug_facts.jpg 2. http://www.cvs.com/bizcontent/merchandising/productimages/large/5042807181_2.jpg http://www.cvs.com/bizcontent/merchandising/productimages/la...

captainmuon 10y ago

Not just health products. Some time ago I saw one of those consumer advocate TV shows where they were testing chicken salad. They found that many products had laughably little chicken inside, and that the manufacturers were lying on the labels. That was when I realized that the people who prepare our food have an incentive to decieve us. It's a tug of war between consumers' and producers' interests. They want to make it as cheap as possible with as little real ingredients as possible. It reminded me of something I read by Karl Marx (!) - how in his time the bakers in London would adulterate their bread with all kinds of nasty things.

sedachv 10y ago

> Does anyone else feel that way or am I being unreasonable? Not at all. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that the current situation with lack of dietary/cosmetics product regulation in the United States is the result of a Mormon conspiracy: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/opinion/the-politics-of-fraudulent-dietary-supplements.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/opinion/the-politics-of-fr...

philipkglass 10y ago
I have enough libertarian sympathies that I'd be ok with people selling dietary supplements for human consumption, no clinical trials necessary, as long as it's all correctly labeled. Like, I really doubt that taking dried garlic capsules is going to affect your LDL cholesterol, but I'm fine with people trying that as long as all the sellers clearly and correctly label the product. But if some company is filling those capsules with dried onion instead of garlic, and trying to excuse it with "the real thing doesn't behave any differently," then I want the regulator-hammer to drop on them. The same goes for fraudulently labeled seafood, pet treats, honey, etc. These frauds should be policed better. It boggles the mind that some libertarians want the individual to make smart choices for themselves instead of the government pre-empting those choices (which I support in many cases - drug consumption and other risky behaviors) but also want to let fraud run rampant by gutting inspections and labeling requirements.
generj 10y ago
Is there a reason you used the term "Mormon conspiracy"? It detracts from the rest of your point. You hopefully wouldn't call Bernie Madoff's scheme a "Jewish conspiracy" just because the principal in that scheme was Jewish. If you had called something a Jewish conspiracy people would most likely have reacted very negatively - mostly out of the prosecution Jews have and do undergo, but also because it was very immaterial to his actions and seems bigoted prima facie. Unless you are describing a literal conspiracy by a religion it generally sounds terrible to describe an event by members of that religion by the title of the religion. Hatch is a morally bankrupt person, obviously. But that's on him.

stillsut 10y ago

Supermarket aloe vera is a product that changed my life. Seriously. With my cheap Irish skin, I'm sure to get a severe sunburn once a year. I've had one so bad it started to bleed; that one almost stopped me from going to highschool prom. I had tried Noxzema moisturizing gel, cold shower, hot tub, and several other anecdotal remedies for sunburns, but nothing worked - for about five days following a sunburn I was basically handicapped. A year or two after the big one I tried the [fake] aloe vera and it finally seemed like something worked. Ever since then, I'll use roughly a bottle a day of the stuff following an intense burn. This has reduced the discomfort to the level that the average Joe expresses as in "Ahh, extra sensitive right now" not "Can't put on clothes right now"

hwang89 10y ago
Sunblock?
- stillsut 10y ago
  Sure! That's why I don't get brunt everyday I'm outside between April and September. There's some tricky failure modes to sunscreen though, and inevitably you'll find one of those failures if you expose yourself to dozen of chances for it to happen.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    The absolute best sunblock is physical long sleeves, wide brim hat, tree covering.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
Did it have any actual Aloe Vera in it?
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  Does it matter if it works? (i mean, legally, of course... and morally... ) ... but as a solution, if it works, it works, right?

jcranmer 10y ago

Anything that's marketed as a health or dietary supplement (basically, anything that falls under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_Education_Act_of_1994 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_... ) is unregulated by the FDA--no efficacy studies, not even safety studies are required for marketing. They are required to list active ingredients, but unlike drug manufacturers, there is no regular inspection to make sure that they're actually producing the things they say they're making. And judging from the several reports I've seen, the manufacturers are so lazy that they can't be bothered to actually acquire the active ingredient. Whatever you think about Big Pharma, they are saints compared to the supplement industry.