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The escape key is still there, it's on the Touch Bar, I have no issues with using it, and I haven't had to re-map it. Also you can hit the 'fn' key and the 'Fun

The escape key is still there, it's on the Touch Bar, I have no issues with using it, and I haven't had to re-map it. Also you can hit the 'fn' key and the 'Function' bar and escape key will appear while using any other 'app' that changes the Touch Bar.

51Cards 10y ago
The prime issue is lack of tactile feedback. I wrote quite a bit about this in a previous comment, in that we "touch type" because we get feedback from our fingers. Implementing a "keyboard" interface that requires a change of visual focus is not a good UI practice.
- eridius 10y ago
  In your comment 25 days ago, you stated that the problem is the layout of the Touch Bar changes regularly, therefore you need to look at it. But this doesn't make sense for the Esc key, because the Esc key is always in the same place on the Touch Bar (and is always available while you're typing).
  - 51Cards 10y ago
    To me there are a couple problems. One is the changing layout as I mentioned and the fact you have to shift focus constantly because you can't feel where things are (esp since they change from app to app). Then secondly the lack of feedback. I wouldn't mind the touch-bar so much if it hadn't replaced keys that some people use constantly. As an add on above the keyboard, sure... while I wouldn't be crazy about it it could be handy for some people. But half the comments talk about how you can re-map keys to work around it... and that to me spells UI downgrade. A fair percentage of people are perceiving this as enough of a loss in functionality they are finding work arounds.
    - eridius 10y ago
      I'm willing to bet that most people complaining about it and talking about remapping it haven't actually used the Touch Bar yet.
hackcrafter 10y ago
I've been wondering about this. Does the 'fn' key force-change the touchbar to display F1-F12? If so, then I don't understand the folks bemoaning the lack of physical "function keys" from their apps, which I assume they mean that they use the F(n) keys, since the mechanics of this are the same. I'm a fast touch typist, but have never have hit F(n) keys accurately without glancing at the keyboard when I do use them, so I assume I would have no problem with the TouchBar based F keys.
- kfinley 10y ago
  > Does the 'fn' key force-change the touchbar to display F1-F12? Yes it does
  - vszakats 10y ago
    Is it possible to set it [1] to display F keys by default (and switch to alternate functionality only on pressing Fn key)? [1] System Preferences > Keyboard > Keyboard > "Use all F1, F2, etc. keys as standard function keys" option on El Cap.
    - eridius 10y ago
      No. You can set the Touch Bar to show, by default, "App Controls with Control Strip", "Expanded Control Strip", or "App Controls". And you can change Fn so it shows "Expanded Control Strip" instead of the F-keys (e.g. if you never need F-keys). But you can't set the Touch Bar to default to F-keys and require Fn to do something else.
sergiosgc 10y ago
I have a Lenovo x1c with an oled touch bar. In the x1c it has function keys. It's a terrible solution. No tactile feedback is a deal breaker. Lenovo backtracked, and subsequent generations lost the "touch bar" and use regular keys.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Implementation details matter. This is one area where Apple has often excelled where others have failed.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    The touchpad is a good example here. I've got an HP with a large touchpad, and with the buttons implemented in software. It's horrendous to use in a situation where I'm mixing left and right clicks, while expecting the cursor to stay in one place (games, file management in the GUI). I don't use Macs often, but that's definitely one place where Apple is so far ahead in their implementation that it's not even funny. Using the touchpad for anything more complex than surfing the web is much more comfortable.
Lio 10y ago
Does it toggle or is only when the fn key is held? If it's only whilst the key is held it effectively means you'd have to use your right hand to press the escape key ...which doesn't sound ideal to me.
- eridius 10y ago
  Esc is always available while you're typing (and usually available when you're not). Holding Fn is for getting at the F-keys, not for getting at Esc (though it can be used for getting at Esc too if you're in a context that normally hides that key).
oneeyedpigeon 10y ago
Was it not a problem getting used to it being in a different position? How do you find pressing a key with no physical presence - do you have to look down at it, or are you just used to it now?

51Cards 10y ago

The prime issue is lack of tactile feedback. I wrote quite a bit about this in a previous comment, in that we "touch type" because we get feedback from our fingers. Implementing a "keyboard" interface that requires a change of visual focus is not a good UI practice.

eridius 10y ago
In your comment 25 days ago, you stated that the problem is the layout of the Touch Bar changes regularly, therefore you need to look at it. But this doesn't make sense for the Esc key, because the Esc key is always in the same place on the Touch Bar (and is always available while you're typing).
- 51Cards 10y ago
  To me there are a couple problems. One is the changing layout as I mentioned and the fact you have to shift focus constantly because you can't feel where things are (esp since they change from app to app). Then secondly the lack of feedback. I wouldn't mind the touch-bar so much if it hadn't replaced keys that some people use constantly. As an add on above the keyboard, sure... while I wouldn't be crazy about it it could be handy for some people. But half the comments talk about how you can re-map keys to work around it... and that to me spells UI downgrade. A fair percentage of people are perceiving this as enough of a loss in functionality they are finding work arounds.
  - eridius 10y ago
    I'm willing to bet that most people complaining about it and talking about remapping it haven't actually used the Touch Bar yet.

hackcrafter 10y ago

I've been wondering about this. Does the 'fn' key force-change the touchbar to display F1-F12? If so, then I don't understand the folks bemoaning the lack of physical "function keys" from their apps, which I assume they mean that they use the F(n) keys, since the mechanics of this are the same. I'm a fast touch typist, but have never have hit F(n) keys accurately without glancing at the keyboard when I do use them, so I assume I would have no problem with the TouchBar based F keys.

kfinley 10y ago
> Does the 'fn' key force-change the touchbar to display F1-F12? Yes it does
- vszakats 10y ago
  Is it possible to set it [1] to display F keys by default (and switch to alternate functionality only on pressing Fn key)? [1] System Preferences > Keyboard > Keyboard > "Use all F1, F2, etc. keys as standard function keys" option on El Cap.
  - eridius 10y ago
    No. You can set the Touch Bar to show, by default, "App Controls with Control Strip", "Expanded Control Strip", or "App Controls". And you can change Fn so it shows "Expanded Control Strip" instead of the F-keys (e.g. if you never need F-keys). But you can't set the Touch Bar to default to F-keys and require Fn to do something else.

sergiosgc 10y ago

I have a Lenovo x1c with an oled touch bar. In the x1c it has function keys. It's a terrible solution. No tactile feedback is a deal breaker. Lenovo backtracked, and subsequent generations lost the "touch bar" and use regular keys.

r00fus 10y ago
Implementation details matter. This is one area where Apple has often excelled where others have failed.
- khedoros1 10y ago
  The touchpad is a good example here. I've got an HP with a large touchpad, and with the buttons implemented in software. It's horrendous to use in a situation where I'm mixing left and right clicks, while expecting the cursor to stay in one place (games, file management in the GUI). I don't use Macs often, but that's definitely one place where Apple is so far ahead in their implementation that it's not even funny. Using the touchpad for anything more complex than surfing the web is much more comfortable.

Lio 10y ago

Does it toggle or is only when the fn key is held? If it's only whilst the key is held it effectively means you'd have to use your right hand to press the escape key ...which doesn't sound ideal to me.

eridius 10y ago
Esc is always available while you're typing (and usually available when you're not). Holding Fn is for getting at the F-keys, not for getting at Esc (though it can be used for getting at Esc too if you're in a context that normally hides that key).

oneeyedpigeon 10y ago

Was it not a problem getting used to it being in a different position? How do you find pressing a key with no physical presence - do you have to look down at it, or are you just used to it now?