3 ms·

As a non-climber: who drills these holes into the wall with the carabiners in them? (AND HOW???)

avar 10y ago
How: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4zuO1XSxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4zuO1XSxQ Who: Aside from Yosemite, the answer is "it depends", a lot of these are just set up by enterprising enthusiasts, often technically illegally, but few care enough to bother them. In some parks & locations they're set up by whoever manages the park / owns the area to attract climbers & the business that comes with it. Some people in the mountaineering / climbing community don't like them since they leave a permanent trace ("take only photos, leave only footprints"), and prefer to use removable versions of these for just the duration of the climb.
- jdietrich 10y ago
  Dislike is something of an understatement. For many decades, there has been a tit-for-tat war between sport and trad climbers. Sport climbers bolt a route, then trad climbers come along with bolt croppers and remove the protection. In many areas, bolting is carried out under cover of darkness, for fear of violent confrontation with traditionalists. The Dawn Wall has been a significant battleground in this war. The first ascent was made by Harding and Caldwell in 1970 using bolts and significant aid climbing; A year later, Royal Robbins made the second ascent, chopping off the bolts as he went.
  - spuz 10y ago
    I think that's overblowing it. 99.9% of the time, trad climbers and sport climbers and their respective ethics coexist peacefully. There are rock climbing areas that are better suited to trad and areas that are suited to sport, and most of the time those areas are pretty well agreed upon. There are also areas (such as Yosemite) where a mixture of removable gear and permanent gear is most appropriate and in those cases, the general rule of 'removable gear where possible, fixed gear where necessary' is also well agreed upon. What you're talking about with Harding and Robbins on the Dawn Wall is a clash of ethics that is long in the past. Very few people consider it worthwhile hammering pitons into a slice of blank rock in order to ascend it and aid climbing in itself is less popular with respect to free climbing.
  - JadeNB 10y ago
    > A year later, Royal Robbins made the second ascent, chopping off the bolts as he went. un-devmox said that Royal Robbins stopped (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13015150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13015150), and Wikipedia agrees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Robbins#Dawn_Wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Robbins#Dawn_Wall). (Technically, I guess neither of those contradicts what you said.)
manarth 10y ago
Different sites have different policies for bolting, for example, Yosemite allows drilling and bolting, as long as it's done by hand (no motorised drills) [1]. Most bolts are placed by local climbers, and it's widely recognised that there is an "ethical" aspect to bolting: whether they should be fitted, where they should be fitted, etc. If someone came along and indiscriminately bolted a route, without any consultation with the local community, it would provoke an outcry. Generally, bolts are fitted by a climber on an abseil rope. They'll reach the top using an alternative, easy route (at many crags, you can reach the top simply by hiking along a path), then abseil down, and drill/fit the bolts whilst attached to an abseiling rope. Installing bolts whilst lead-climbing is done, but it's not very common. The climber would start by securing themselves to the cliff using traditional 'lead protection' (which is designed to be temporary, and generally not as secure as a bolt). Once secured, they would drill and fit the bolt. [1] https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bolting.htm https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bolting.htm
wlll 10y ago
Avar replied, but here's another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fANAk7UC6rg&feature=youtu.be&t=3m1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fANAk7UC6rg&feature=youtu.be...
cardiffspaceman 10y ago
Before it was "discovered" that placing and removing pitons or even chocks actually caused wear in the rock, the permanence of bolting was considered a negative. Now you can look at it as, better to have something there permanently than to have gradually widening holes punctuating a fine crack. If you think it isn't sporting, just do the route solo free so you don't have any impact on the rock at all. /elitist /maybe

avar 10y ago

How: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4zuO1XSxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4zuO1XSxQ Who: Aside from Yosemite, the answer is "it depends", a lot of these are just set up by enterprising enthusiasts, often technically illegally, but few care enough to bother them. In some parks & locations they're set up by whoever manages the park / owns the area to attract climbers & the business that comes with it. Some people in the mountaineering / climbing community don't like them since they leave a permanent trace ("take only photos, leave only footprints"), and prefer to use removable versions of these for just the duration of the climb.

jdietrich 10y ago
Dislike is something of an understatement. For many decades, there has been a tit-for-tat war between sport and trad climbers. Sport climbers bolt a route, then trad climbers come along with bolt croppers and remove the protection. In many areas, bolting is carried out under cover of darkness, for fear of violent confrontation with traditionalists. The Dawn Wall has been a significant battleground in this war. The first ascent was made by Harding and Caldwell in 1970 using bolts and significant aid climbing; A year later, Royal Robbins made the second ascent, chopping off the bolts as he went.
- spuz 10y ago
  I think that's overblowing it. 99.9% of the time, trad climbers and sport climbers and their respective ethics coexist peacefully. There are rock climbing areas that are better suited to trad and areas that are suited to sport, and most of the time those areas are pretty well agreed upon. There are also areas (such as Yosemite) where a mixture of removable gear and permanent gear is most appropriate and in those cases, the general rule of 'removable gear where possible, fixed gear where necessary' is also well agreed upon. What you're talking about with Harding and Robbins on the Dawn Wall is a clash of ethics that is long in the past. Very few people consider it worthwhile hammering pitons into a slice of blank rock in order to ascend it and aid climbing in itself is less popular with respect to free climbing.
- JadeNB 10y ago
  > A year later, Royal Robbins made the second ascent, chopping off the bolts as he went. un-devmox said that Royal Robbins stopped (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13015150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13015150), and Wikipedia agrees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Robbins#Dawn_Wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Robbins#Dawn_Wall). (Technically, I guess neither of those contradicts what you said.)

manarth 10y ago

Different sites have different policies for bolting, for example, Yosemite allows drilling and bolting, as long as it's done by hand (no motorised drills) [1]. Most bolts are placed by local climbers, and it's widely recognised that there is an "ethical" aspect to bolting: whether they should be fitted, where they should be fitted, etc. If someone came along and indiscriminately bolted a route, without any consultation with the local community, it would provoke an outcry. Generally, bolts are fitted by a climber on an abseil rope. They'll reach the top using an alternative, easy route (at many crags, you can reach the top simply by hiking along a path), then abseil down, and drill/fit the bolts whilst attached to an abseiling rope. Installing bolts whilst lead-climbing is done, but it's not very common. The climber would start by securing themselves to the cliff using traditional 'lead protection' (which is designed to be temporary, and generally not as secure as a bolt). Once secured, they would drill and fit the bolt. [1] https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bolting.htm https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bolting.htm

wlll 10y ago

Avar replied, but here's another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fANAk7UC6rg&feature=youtu.be&t=3m1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fANAk7UC6rg&feature=youtu.be...

cardiffspaceman 10y ago

Before it was "discovered" that placing and removing pitons or even chocks actually caused wear in the rock, the permanence of bolting was considered a negative. Now you can look at it as, better to have something there permanently than to have gradually widening holes punctuating a fine crack. If you think it isn't sporting, just do the route solo free so you don't have any impact on the rock at all. /elitist /maybe